Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 16:56:05 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #94 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. back in town (Ray Terry) 2. Leo Fong website (Sidney525@aol.com) 3. Ray Terry's Dan rank? (jay de leon) 4. Leo Salinel's David Eke's good points (jay de leon) 5. Stockton, California (Pjbagalayos@aol.com) 6. Response to Leo (Peter Gow) 7. Modern Arnis 'Dan' ranks (Tye W. Botting, Ph.D.) 8. Modern Arnis Ranking (Alex Ercia) 9. Pen and Knife Guns (Ray Terry) 10. Ownership & Hijacking the Art (Marc Denny) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 09:11:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] back in town Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Am now back in town from the big seminar down in Mississippi. 3-days (Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday), ~300 people attending. All for only $65.00. A great time! Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Sidney525@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:06:32 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Leo Fong website Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Does anyone have any information on Leo Fong's website, especially for ordering books or products. I can no longer find it. thanks Sid --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "jay de leon" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: theclassic33@hotmail.com Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 20:07:56 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Ray Terry's Dan rank? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I do not speak for Modern Arnis, but I trained in NARAPHIL Modern Arnis in RP. My instructor (a Tagalog based in Manila) interchangeably used "Lakan" as the Tagalog term and "Dan" as the Japanese equivalent. Jay de Leon _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage – 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "jay de leon" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: theclassic33@hotmail.com Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:37:43 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Leo Salinel's David Eke's good points Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Terminology must be authentic." Agree, but who or what makes it authentic? For example, up to now, I have no idea what the etymology of "hubad-lubad" is. First of all, I am Tagalog with the usual superficial knowledge of Cebuano, Pangalatok, Kampampangan, etc. For all I know, it could be an Ibanag or Tausog or Badjao term. Or if there is, or was, at least one FMA guro in RP who used this term in teaching his art, does that make "hubad-lubad" authentic? The other reality is that it now has, like many other "pseudo" FMA terms, passed on to the realm of "common usage" in the U.S. I receive a fair number of private emails from ED members and many of them (including a couple from my friend Marc Denny) have been about terminology. I tell them I have a lot of empathy for non-Filipinos struggling to teach (or even learn) a foreign system with terminology as shifting and treacherous as the sands of the Kalahari. I also tell them that if their FMA style rocks and their heart is in the right place, don't worry about the terminology. It is admirable to seek historical, cultural and linguistic accuracy, but more so to enjoy, teach and spread the art. Jay de Leon P.S. Talk about (unique, but presumably authentic) names and terminology, I just saw "Siling Labuyo Arnis" in a recent post. Praytell, what is the origin of this group? Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage – 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 17:47:04 -0500 From: Pjbagalayos@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Stockton, California Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Does anyone have any information on escrima clubs here in Stockton? I have heard of three: Giron Arnis Escrima a.k.a. Bahala Na Martial Arts, Cabales Serrada Escrima, and De Cuerdas. From what I have gathered, Giron is a largely "Larga Mana" style, but people tell me it's roots are combat based from it's founders (Leo Giron) experiences in WW2. Cabales is a serrada system (obviously) and the De Cuerdas system I have not heard too much about. Any information on these systems, especially the combat "proveness" (if that is a word) of the Giron system would be helpful and much appriciated. Thanks! P.J.B. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 22:56:27 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Response to Leo Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear Leo, In your response you stated that the older immigrant manongs to the states were uneducated and could not explain things well. This may be only one side of the story. Perhaps, have you considered the point that people did not understand what the older manongs were explaining. If a person is uneducated it does not mean that they cannot explain "things" or are unintelligent. Education and intelligence are different. It would be far wiser to show more respect to the ones who have come before us to hand down the knowledge rather than critisize them. You should be grateful for what you have learned and for the opportunities that you had in life that the older manongs may not have had or have been able to afford. SHAME ON YOU! Oh, bye the way I have a degree or two myself and see myself as a human being who is ready to learn from any one educated or uneducated with or without explaination.  Regards, Peter Gow Australia. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get Extra Storage in 10MB, 25MB, 50MB and 100MB options now! Upgrade here! --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 18:01:10 -0500 From: "Tye W. Botting, Ph.D." To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Modern Arnis 'Dan' ranks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: > Just noticed this. Does Modern Arnis actually use the Japanese/Korean term > "Dan"? I know that Cacoy uses a Black belt rank approach in his Doce Pares, > but he uses the term "Degree" instead of Dan. Professor Remy Presas didn't, at least. (In fact, he didn't like using japanese terms for anything he did...) While he did use belt ranks, and black was/is top color, the term used was lakan (or dayang for females), and the ranks were: Lakan (black belt - sometimes a probationary one beforehand, sometimes not) Lakan isa (1st degree black belt) Lakan dalawa (2nd degree black belt) Lakan tatlo (3rd degree black belt) ... etc on up to 10th degree The term Dan is probably sometimes used by modern-arnisadors to 'aid' in communication with different stylists who might not know what a lakan/dayang is. Furthermore, you may remember the big stink years ago about X-th level black belt, which came about because lakan was a full black belt level in its own right; so 2nd degree is actually the 3rd level of black belt, etc. Enough of that though - just wondering who the '8th dan' guy is; I didn't think Modern Arnis had anyone higher than Lakan Anim (6th degree), or at most Lakan Pito (7th degree)... Ernesto, on the other hand, might have a different ranking terminology, and his people sometimes use the term Modern Arnis as well. - Tye [ PS - Hi Ray! Yep, I'm still on here... ;-) -- Tye W. Botting, Ph.D. Assistant Professor, NCPTT/NSU Department of Chemistry and Physics Northwestern State University, Natchitoches, LA lab: 318-356-7444 off: 318-357-5235 fax: 318-356-9119 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Alex Ercia" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:46:36 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Modern Arnis Ranking Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Modern Arnis ranking perse does not go by Japanese/Korean ranks or terms. The us of Lakan is used instead. But since some do not understand they would use the Dan term for the general public. So Lakan goes from Isa to Sampu. Lakan Sampu being the highest rank. HOpe this helps. Alex _________________________________________________________________ Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:11:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Pen and Knife Guns Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Taken from The Law Enforcement Trainer, Jan/Feb 2004 Pen and Knife Guns Firearms disguised as other objects are neither new nor novel; however, since passage of federal firearms laws in the 1930s, they have been tightly regulated, had stiff penalties associated with their sale and possession, and not been readily available as a commercial commodity. In recent times, law enforcement has only encountered the manufacture and sale of guns disguised as pens and knives from clandestine factories. In the past, the possession of such weapons has been found to be by criminals who desired extreme concealability and non-detection during law enforcement searches. With today threat from terrorists, these types of weapons can provide a unique means of smuggling a firearm into a restricted area. These types of firearms obviously pose a danger to the safety of law enforcement officers. Due to a technical loophole in the federal law dealing with the firing position of the weapon, the Stinger Manufacturing Corporation, Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, is now manufacturing and offering for commercial sale PenGun and Knifegun Pistols. Each of these disguised weapons operates as single shot pistols, firing .22 caliber LR Rimfire or .17 HMR Rimfire ammunition. It should also be noted that the Stinger Company plans in the future on selling a "Sniper" 18" barrel for its pen gun, as well as additional calibers. Both weapons can be easily concealed in clothing apparel pockets, boots, briefcases, underneath automobile seats, mats, dashboards, and among tools or other items of like size, etc. Without close scrutiny during pat downs and other searches, an officer could easily fail to notice either firearm as a lethal weapon, thus placing him or herself in danger. In addition, because these firearms are disguised as other items (in particular the pengun), detecting such as firearms at security checkpoints, i.e. entrances to government buildings, airport gates, and similar areas requires knowledge of their existence and training in their identification. As with all firearms, caution should always be taken when attempting to unload; however, disguised weapons produce added problems by their very nature. Due to their unique configuration, extreme caution should be taken when unloading these firearms. It is recommended that only personnel familiar or trained with the weapon perform the task in a safe area. Specifications for both weapons are as follows: Stinger PenGun Pistol Caliber .22 LR Rimfire .17 HMR Rimfire (optional conversion kit) More Coming Soon! Operation Single Shot Weight (empty) 5 oz. Length, overall 5.6" (4.2" folded) Diameter 5/8" to 1/2" Tapered Barrel 2" long, six grooves, RH twist of 1 in 14" 4140 ordnance steel "Sniper" 18" Barrel Coming Soon! Receiver 303 Stainless Action Cocks on opening Safety Manual Firing Pin Block Handle 416 Stainless Finish Receiver and Handle, natural stainless. Barrel nickel plated. Limited Edition 24K Gold plate version available Case Black "Jewel Box" embossed case List price .22 LR Stainless Steel - $250 USD Source: Stingerpengun.com ------------------------------------------------ Stinger Survivor KnifeGun Caliber .22 LR &.17 HMR Blade AUS-8 Steel with Blasted Finish Handle Material Coco Bob Wood (optional materials available) Length 3.70" Width 1.09" Weight 12 Oz Holster Supplied Classification Same as Stinger Penpistol (non-NFA) Suggested Retail $375 Source: Stingerpengun.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 16:48:08 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Ownership & Hijacking the Art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: IIRC it was David who wrote: BEGIN "The issue is not about "terminology" (or spelling for that matter), it's about ownership. There are (sic) a group of people out there that think their indigenous MA is being hijacked, repackaged and feed (sic) back to them. They perceive that "incorrect" terminology is a symptom of this. Whether you agree or disagree with the above it goes to why this thread keeps popping up. If you don't "give a rat's hairy a$$" about terminology it would be going a long way into the middle ground to accept that other people do and it's maybe (sic) important to them." END Please forgive the smartass corrections to the preceding, but rather to make a point. My language, the English language, matters to me. I believe it important to speak it well and correctly. But I don't feel ripped off because it has become the international language and that foreigners who speak it often do strange things with it and to it. So unless something fun like pulling Rocky's tail is involved I usually don't bother with the corrections. I certainly don't get upset. Furthemore, what is meant by "accept"? I certainly KNOW that some people get very wound up about this, and I certainly ACCEPT they are free to do so if they wish, but does this mean that I must ACCEPT whatever I'm told-- and then change it the next time I run into something different from someone else or else be accused of "mouthing off" as one recent post had it? Oy vey. For this American, there is sometimes a feeling of "Catch 22" in all this-- that no matter what I say or do, some people will be upset some of the time and certain people will be upset all of the time. To go right to a flamable example, just this past weekend at Alfredo and Dieter's big shindig in Germany (I hope to post much more on this) I sat next to a Visayan Filipino guro from Mindanao and he told me that the term Kali was indigenous amongst his Muslim friends. Yet others, also seemingly in a position to know have vehemently stated the contrary. So why the heat at me by some when we use it? The idea that terminology squabbles with non-Filipinos really being about a feeling of "their" art being "hijacked" and the "incorrect terminology" begin seen as a sympton I suspect to be a really good insight. That said, I don't follow the conclusion that getting the terminology "right" would help find a middle ground. In that Filipinos vigorously and occasionally viciously disagree amongst themselves getting it "right" this simply is the imposition of a condition impossible to meet-- which leads me to suspect that the feeling of "their" art being "hijacked" would remain regardless of terminological criteria. So, if the real issue is "ownership" and "hijacking", let's stop beating arouund the bush; let's discuss ownership and hijacking . Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest