Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:19:06 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #97 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Modern Arnis (rocky pasiwk) 2. This is refreshing... (Bobster) 3. Finally, the real terms... (Bobster) 4. RE: Good times (Van Harn, Steve) 5. for Peter Gow and Jay de Leon (Leo Salinel) 6. Re: Once guns are banned (Fred O) 7. "Hijacking" the FMAs (jose saguisabal) 8. Re: Re: Once guns are banned (Magnus Larsson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:32:48 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Modern Arnis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Dan, whos it going, you wrote: >Also, to my knowledge Prof. Presas never promoted anyone in the US to >anything higher than 6th Degree Black. I was somewhere around the 4th or >5th promoted (Jim Power, Robert DeMott [I believe that's his name], Lee >Lowery preceded me) and Tim Harman was the last in 2000. All other >Modern Arnis ranks higher than 6th Actually I believe Jim is the same Rank as me 5th Degree, and Robert Demott, is a 7th degree, how or why is still mind boggling to me, but I was there and saw it happen, 10 minutes latter they where threatning to beat hell out of each other, ( which Robert would have lost in a Bad bad way) but I was 17 and standing in between them and thought I was going to get killed so, I got Remy to get in my car and we got the hell out of there, but nonetheless I saw him give it to Robert, actually it was pretty much at that time that I reliezed Remy could careless about rank, that and a year later when he wrote 3rd deree blackbelt on my hand and signed it while he, Hal, and I were on tour in Germany, I washed my hand and know have no 3rd degree certificate! just 1,2,4,5th Rocky --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Bobster" To: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:48:43 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] This is refreshing... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >"Who truly owns the FMAs? Us Filipinos? That would be nice to say -except that after noticing the extent to which these have been shared, ownership is not as exclusive as it used to be (which, I may ask myself, was when?) That yet opens up another can of worms - is ownership as posted here meant in the spirit of exclusivity? When do you own an art? When you come from another culture and learn this or that art so much so that it shapes your very worldview, can we not say that you as an individual now own it? Maybe not exclusively, since you learned it from your teacher, and he still owns it too. But since you immersed yourself in it so completely, isn't it that you now own whatever part you learned? How about the whole art? Well then, when do you truly learn the complete art?"< From: Felipe Jocano Excellent post, Felipe! Bobbe Edmonds --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Bobster" To: Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:50:21 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Finally, the real terms... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >"Of course, now I'm going to find out that 'siling labuyo arnis' is Filipino slang for 'wearing a prom dress and cruising the dockyards for a date.'"< Not that, but it is an AWFUL thing to say about your sister...! Just kidding!! Bobbe Edmonds --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Van Harn, Steve" To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:01:27 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Good times Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Original Message> From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 07:09:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] good times Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm sure you all had a great time at the FMA event in Europe. I know I'm just back from a large event here in the US (3 days, 300 people, $65.00 to attend, very impressive list of instructors) and all had a GREAT time. Sure you folks did, too. The best times always seem to be at the breaks and in the evening when people can get together to chat, eat, drink and work on whatever comes up. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com Ah, yes it was quite a weekend, wasn't it? The WEKAF US Nationals were this past weekend as well, held in Denver, CO. Quite a fun event, despite catching a cold the day before leaving and learning to fight with a pounding headache due to the altitude and restricted ability to breathe. I believe headaches were pretty much to be had by most for the first two days! I'd mirror the comments by Ray. Saw many old friends and made many new ones to hook up with later. I heard many folks in the spectator sections remarking that although there were a wide variety of schools and styles represented, they couldn't help but notice the genuine friendliness and brotherhood that was exhibited by all. Steve Van Harn Arnis Sikaran - Jornales System Sandatahan --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 08:47:49 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Salinel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] for Peter Gow and Jay de Leon Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jay, Actually I realize I must qualify my post. All this present hulabaloo is coming from the discussion on Blaise Loong's "Silat Sabungin". When I said terminology must be correct, I am referring to people (not Blaise Loong and others like him) who claim to have learned an art or system from the Philippines and yet cannot even get the terminology correct. Ultimately, however, if the system works and is functional, there should be no problem. As Prof. Jocano discussed, we Filipinos often feel that our arts are "hijacked". Actually, they're not. We feel great that you Westerners love our FMA and do not mind that as a result of 50 years of evolution from the times FMA were first taught to westerners, the terms and concepts and names changed. That's OK and is historically inevitable. There's nothing wrong with that. For example, westerners and native English speakers shouldn't diss the late GM Ben Lema for naming his style IN ENGLISH as "Lightning Scientific Arnis" or for using "lightning" as an adjective when it is supposed to be a noun (and if it is to be used as an adjective, that he should have used Lightning "Fast" Scientific Arnis). In the same way, we cannot and shouldn't diss Blaise Loong and Americans for coming up with terms and concepts and new systems based on their multifarious training with different masters even if the results from the point of view of our language aren't even exactly grammatical or correct. Hence, it shouldn't offend us Flips if we hear that so-and-so American guy put up a new style using humorous-sounding Tagalog or ungrammatical Visayan/Cebuano terms. We should be proud that at least they consider it FMA and take it seriously at that. Transplanting of martial art systems naturally results in new variations in other countries wehre the systems were transplanted to (for instance, we now have Hawaiian-American kungfu and jujitsu and kenpo systems like Kosho-ryu Kenpo, Kara-ho Kenpo, Wun Hop Kuen Do, Danzan Ryu Jujitsu, but the Japanese and Chinese don't feel cheated or insulted since the "new Americanized" systems are natural offshoots of their exposure to Asian martial arts over a span of time). We Filipinos don't really own the FMA. It's a common heritage of humanity. At the very least all humanity already acknowledges the gift given by the Filipino race in the form of the FMA. And that should suffice. We shouldn't really feel that the stuff is hijacked and repackaged to us--it's not repackaged intentionally. It is simply the result of evolution over the time span of 40-50 years of westerners' exposure to FMA. Jay is right when he says that as long as their hearts are in the right place, the terms used shouldn't matter. So let me clarify my post. However, for some who say that such-and-such IS an art taught to him in the Philippines and yet their terms and facts aren't correct by the standards of the region in the Philippines where the said "art" came from, then we should suspect such persons and their so-called "art". It is ANOTHER thing, however, to admit that one learned from VARIOUS teachers and thus came up with a NEW HYBRID or COMPOSITE art in credit of all his teachers (similar to what the late PG Edgar Sulite did in credit to all his teachers when he put up Lameco Eskrima and always insisted on giving credit where credit was due). Now let me respond to Peter Gow... Peter, I wasn't dissing or insulting the old manongs. I WAS SIMPLY STATING A FACT. I myself would learn from an unschooled guy, really, as long as his system is good and functional. I was simply EXPLAINING why we have dissonances or variations in explanations of the same concepts, putting aside the regional differences of course (now the terms would always vary depending on w/c region of the Philippines a master would come from). For instance, we have historical inaccuracies like Blind Princess. Based on history, the "Blind Princess" is actually a Pulahan war chief's daughter, so she is nothing like a tribal princess and her father is certainly no Rajah or Datu or Sultan or king or tribal chief, in the same way that the Pulahans are certainly not a tribe at all but a large sect composed of neo-animistic red-wearing bladefighting rebels at the turn of the past century. GM Floro Villabrille SIMPLY COULD NOT EXPRESS HIMSELF ANY BETTER. Why is that? Because most manongs (I repeat myself here) DIDN'T EVEN GET TO FINISH GRADE SCHOOL OR EVEN GET TO SCHOOL FOR ANY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF TIME. Please, Peter, read my post again. Nowhere does it show disrespect. Our manongs/masters are fighters, not historians. I acknowledge their skill and ability and fighting knowledge, but let's be objective by admitting that their historical knowledge would more likely be flawed given their lack of education. GM Angel Cabales, for instance, according to Mark Wiley, was a self-confessed unschooled guy, never even finishing sixth grade. GM Johnny Lacoste most likely didn't even finish high school or even reach high school (in the early 1900s, going to school for most rural Filipinos was inconvenient since it took their kids away from productive farmwork and earning money for the family table; it was only shortly before WW2 that the American public school system became firmly entrenched in Philippine rural life). That lack of education or historical knowledge causes much of the differences we nw have over terms/concepts/historical facts. The terms are excusable since the regional or ethnic origins of each manong/master will naturally result in varied usages such as "arnis/kali/escrima/estokada/kaliradman/etc." or "sombrada/payong/etc.". However, variations in historical accounts can be blamed on the one-upmanship endemic to Filipino masters' circles and as I pointed out above, to their lack of knowledge of their own history. Most Filipinos cannot even recall what happened in the generation previous to their own, how much more the unlettered ones? Make no mistake, my own dad himself is a great guy, but the fact is he didn't finish college, so he can't be counted on to come up with a watertight logical analysis of Filipino socio-economic policy and has to rely on what he reads on mass media. Same with our manongs/masters--they fight very well, are real masters and honorable men, credits to the Filipino and human race, but still you can't rely on their historical accounts accurately. In the same way, when I say the manongs were uneducated, please do NOT give NORMATIVE meaning to the word I use. It's just an OBJECTIVE statement. For example, it is one thing to say "mentally retarded" and another thing to say "special child". Now pray tell me what alternative words should I use if you find my use of the words "uneducated" and "unlettered" offensive? ===== Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Fred O" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 17:41:13 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Once guns are banned Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "A 21-year-old man had his hand severed by a samurai sword in a confrontation between 40 men in the Fitzroy Gardens a fortnight ago -- the second brawl involving swords in 24 hours." Sounds like his snake got defanged. Just remember, If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword. Fred C. O'Keefe The cowards never started - and the weak died along the way   ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar – includes FREE pop-up blocking! --__--__-- Message: 7 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:50:23 -0800 From: "jose saguisabal" Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: [Eskrima] "Hijacking" the FMAs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi everyone, First, let me say that I loved David Eke's comments concerning the "hijacking" thread, and am in total agreement. It is important for those who create their own systems, techniques and especially, TERMINOLOGY, to give credit their due. If you assigned a name--whether in Tagalog, Visayan or English--it is only fair to the student that he knows that master what's-his-name coined the name, when he termed it, and the history behind the technique or style. To tell a student that this art has been around for generations or even centuries is not only unethical, it's fraudulent. In the Filipino martial arts, its commonplace for experienced fighters and masters to create their own systems and techniques. Often, students can tell you who came up with a technique or strategy, and almost always can give you the history behind his style. I don't think anyone has a problem with assigning names to your own creations and ideas. It's when some guy (American or Filipino) forges his own system, a nd starts telling people that his art is generations old. Even worse: telling students that this newly created or newly named style is older and more "authentic" than other systems out there. Put yourself in the shoes of a little known instructor from deep in the province who is afforded the opportunity to come to the US and teach his art. He's got plenty of fighting experience under his belt, been studying the art for 20 something years, and can demo any technique from his art--while sparring (something most of us cannot do). Now some kid with a few seminars under his belt (worse if he's a "certified instructor") walks in his class asking about "hubad" or one of 100 drills he learned in his seminars, "pananjakman" or whatever else is commonly known only in America. This authentic teacher, complete with fighting skills the kid may never encounter, is now looked at as less knowledgeable or credible because he doesn't offer "energy drills" or "kinomutai". This is a very real experience for many transplanted masters and teachers. There are many foreign-born masters who don't read magazines and websites to find out that every Filipino style is supposed to do limb destru ctions. What has happened is that a few FMA leaders with a lot of media exposure has defined what is the FMA, here and abroad, and those who don't fit that definition are looked over for someone who does. This is why many teachers who arrive to our shores are given this advice by business-savy teachers: go along with it, use these terms, teach your art as an add-on art to JKD/Kenpo/etc., and you'll make money. I have my opinions about why these changes were made, but I would rather say it in private email exchanges than a public forum... >"Without wanting to get the "Kali" thread going again, I don't remember anyone disputing the historical significance of the word "Kali". This is well documented. The point being that a number of people (including me)who trained in the 80's and early 90's in the Philippines made the comment that the word Kali was not used in the Visayas. I also made the point that a number of styles back then were known under the banner of Arnis and over the the last 20 years changed their name to Kali."> Many schools that adopted the name thought that by doing so, were keeping their style's name free of foreign terminology. So intead of using a Spanish word, they use a Hindi term...Then again, some wanted to pass their art off as THE "Mother art". And when the mother art theory was blown exposed, they either had to stick to the name to save face, or keep the name and continue telling the mother art story to newbies. Then you have those who claim their art is hundreds of years old and predate Spanish influence, hence the prehispanic name. But all you need is an old issue of Black Belt magazine, or old newspaper clippings to see that older than their use of "Kali", is their use of "Arnis". Again, there's nothing wrong with saying "I use the name Kali for my style because it sounds better/don't like Spanish terms/etc.." But when Guro Joe says "This is the ancient style of Kali that was passed down in secret for hundreds of years, even though I studied Arnis I have always known thi s style I am now teaching the public, yada yada yada..." expect others to make a noise. "May not agree but will always respect..." Jay ____________________________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 10:47:03 -0800 (PST) From: Magnus Larsson Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Once guns are banned To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Yesterday a man in Stockholm, Sweden, in a jealous rage attacked and killed his ex girlfriends new boyfriend. The newspaper did not specify what kind of sword the man used. As late as in July, some nutcase with a samurai sword walked in to a kindergarten in a Stockholm suburb and started to slash away at the children, he killed one little girl before some teachers/parents tackled him to the ground. If swords/big knives are comming back into fashion One would do well to learn how to defend against them. Magnus L. Fred O wrote: "A 21-year-old man had his hand severed by a samurai sword in a confrontation between 40 men in the Fitzroy Gardens a fortnight ago -- the second brawl involving swords in 24 hours." Sounds like his snake got defanged. Just remember, If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword. Fred C. O'Keefe The cowards never started - and the weak died along the way ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar – includes FREE pop-up blocking! _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest