Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:48:06 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #99 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: the mother of all beans (Ray Terry) 2. Hijacking and impressing others (Q) 3. Indiana Workshop Announcement: (Stickfighter87@aol.com) 4. Question on Bando Stick Grappling and KaliTudo (TM) (POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com) 5. Roland Dantes - my bad (Tye W. Botting, Ph.D.) 6. Mother of all beans... (Mark Harrell) 7. Rutano Estokada Kali, the difference is... (RJ Sison) 8. Re: for Peter Gow and Jay de Leon (Felipe Jocano) 9. Re: This is refreshing... (Felipe Jocano) 10. Re: Firearms and the Martial Artist (Anthony C) 11. re: restraint and control (excalibur921@ctnet.net) 12. Re: Rutano Estokada Kali, the difference is... (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] the mother of all beans To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 19:51:07 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I have no beef with Muslims from Mindanao using the word "Kali". My friend and researcher Cecil Quirino (of Kris Cutlery) has indicated that the folks from that area of the RP frequently call their arts Kuntao Silat. ?? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:22:32 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Q To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Hijacking and impressing others Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net So, if the real issue is "ownership" and "hijacking", let's stop beating arouund the bush; let's discuss ownership and hijacking . Woof, Crafty Dog It is nice that everyone wants to credit thier teachers and honor them by regurgitating and perpetuating their stories and ways, but really the arts are for your personal growth. That is what Sigung Lee was all about...absorb what is useful and make it your own JKD. In his later years as GM Leo Giron got tired of us americans butchering his filipinenglish terms he used to say..."Dis is a Sdtick....do ipt like disp". And there you have it all the terminology you every really need. I was given that and now I own it. Lets play. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Stickfighter87@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:25:37 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Indiana Workshop Announcement: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello everyone, I thought I'd post this out in the digest world for those that may be interested. Guru Mike Casto will be returning to Muncie, IN. on April 10th from 10am-4pm at the Roy C. Buley Center on 1111 N. Penn Street. (call for directions) Guru Mike will cover Stick striking and locking techniques from Doce Pares Eskrido, Stick/Knife and empty hand from Sikal a hybrid of Kali/Silat as well as Balance Disruption and emphasis on Empty hand attacks from Shen Chuan. This is Guru Mikes 2nd time back so we expect this to be a great workshop and a great turnout. The price is a very reasonable $40(pre-reg by April1) or $50 at door. Any instructor that brings 3 or more students is free. Also Im sure Guru Mike will have many great items for sale as well as the Muncie Workshop DVD/Video from last year. Anyone wanting to see clips of it may view it on Guru Mikes website www.impactacademy.com for more info on the workshop http://impactacademy.com/upcoming_seminars.php Thanks to everyone that attended last year and we hope to see you again this year. If you have not recieved a flier in the mail yet, you should soon. For more info call Cory at 765-287-0497 or email at stickfighter87@aol.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:28:28 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Question on Bando Stick Grappling and KaliTudo (TM) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net How much material exists on the Bando stickgrappling that is mentioned by Crafty Dog and influenced by Dr. Gyi?? I am particularly interested in the use of the lanyard for choking as a follow up to the actual stick engagement at grappling range. What is the level of diversification vs the sarong, etc.? Guro Inosanto showed the options of carrying a wounded warrior with the 34" stick and a few other variables that exposed apparently just the tip of the technical iceberg relative to the Maung Gyi material. My curiosity is on fire. This question is specifically to Crafty and students. Are you satisfied with your developments as far as Kali-Tudo (TM) and its current level of efficiency?? When are we going to see a DVD or text on your material?? You have been exposed to many rich sources like Inosanto/Lacoste, Bukti Negara, Mande Muda, Machado Brothers, Rico Chippiarelli, Larry Hartsell, Erik Paulson, and Leo Gaje. I would love to see what the Dog Brothers battle tempered version of Southeast Asian MMA looks like. Thanks for your time, --Tom Furman www.physicalstrategies.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:15:19 -0500 From: "Tye W. Botting, Ph.D." To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Roland Dantes - my bad Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Quoting eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net: >Hi Tye, Hi Dieter - long time no chat! Wie geht's? Geht's gut mit mir jetzt, aber ich bin sehr beschaeftigt. >the "8th Dan guy" is Professor Remy Presas closest friend and long time >"compadre" from the Philippines, Roland Dantes. >he received this degree, like several others in 1999, when the Professor >was visiting the Philippines. You know, the name somehow looked familiar but didn't click. As soon as I saw his name by itself, for some reason that's only when I remembered. Anyhoo, obviously my bad gaffe for not catching that. Still, I was unaware that he was Lakan Walo - you learn something every day. One of these days I should really get a list together of Lakan Lima and above, just so I can keep it straight. There are so many advanced players I've not been able to meet. Luckily, I have met a few and crossed sticks and hands with them, yourself and our own Tim Hartman included. Still would like to get a chance at the same with others like Roland Dantes, Rocky Pasiwk, and Dan Anderson, and that's just a start. BTW, you or any others who want to chat Modern Arnis stuff (or any FMA) are welcome to drop by and participate at my web forum ( www.kungfu.cc/bbs ) - in fact, I know I'd appreciate it muchly; there's a lot of Modern Arnis knowledge and background here on this list that players on my forum could benefit from. I've encouraged some to join here, but some just never click on email discussion fora. >Things do happen outside the USA. Of course they do. I spent years living outside of the States and enjoyed it more than more than many US citizens would prefer. ;-) BTW, you mentioned you were Lakan Pito - congrats; I was unaware that you had been promoted. Must've happened while I was getting married/finding a new job/moving? -- Tye Botting, Ph.D. Northern Shaolin / Northern Praying Mantis tye@kungfu.cc Remy Presas' Modern Arnis http://www.kungfu.cc Yang Style Taijiquan --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Mark Harrell" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 05:59:14 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Mother of all beans... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree with your statements regarding Villabrille Kali. In my opinion, I think Mr. Villabrille choose the term Kali so that he would stand out from the many Eskrimadors that existed during his time. He wanted to be different and draw attention to himself and his personal expression of the FMA's. That is being said with all due respect to his legacy and art. Mark ________________________________________________________________________ From: "David Eke" "I sat next to a Visayan Filipino guro from Mindanao and he told me that the term Kali was indigenous amongst his Muslim friends." My comment "Kali was not used in the Visayas" refers to the island group comprising Panay, Negros, Cebu, Bohol, Leyte and Samar. Mindanao is not part of the Visayas. You cannot be a Visayan from Mindanao unless they moved there from one of the Visayan Islands. This is not sematics take a look at a map. I have no beef with Muslims from Mindanao using the word "Kali". Most of the Muslim communities are in cultural and geographical isolation. They resist change and have been quite effective in this. This is why they can be so easily identified from one another and from other Filipino cultural groups. Also, they are probably the only group that could validly claim that their MA was "part of the mother art". There is a distinct possibility that the same art could have been passed down through 50 generations (from the eighth century) without significant change under these conditions of isolation. The beef with the name is not really with the name. It's the idea that they make the claim their art "is some type of mother art". Arts like Pekiti Tirsia did not exist in this type of cultural and geographic isolation. If they did they wouldn't have Spanish Surnames, be (predominantly) Catholic, live in Barrios, and have significant Spanish root words in their dialect of Ilongo. Notwithstanding the above argument just take a look at ES's "Masters of Arnis, Kali and Eskrima" at the time of the interviews to see what the Tortal family style was called. The Villabrille-Largusa is another case in point. In Guro I's book "The Filipino Martial Arts" p34 Villabrille claims he traveled the "length and width" of The Philippines to study under various masters and then developed his own eclectic style. "Villabrille pooled all the knowledge from all the sources he came across and developed his own system of combat" Largusa studied under Villabrille and yet makes the following comment. "Ben Largusa separates himself from the title of Escrima master. He is a man of Kali, the older Filipino art...but Kali is the mother or ancestral art" p34 C'mon guys if Villabrille pooled all his knowledge and made up his own art, how can Ben Largusa turn around that the same art is "the mother art". The word Kali is just as good as any other word just be careful if you're making some "mother art claim" to go along with it. _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "RJ Sison" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:06:14 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Rutano Estokada Kali, the difference is... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In Rutano Estokada Kali for example an angle 1 is a downward diagonal motion starting from the right down to the left. This motion can be used with weapons, with empty hands (including elbows, knees and kicks), in grappling, in footwork and in every motion you can think of. It doesn't matter if your standing up or on the ground, that angle 1 is the same no matter what your target, your intended attack or your inteded end result. It is an angle of MOTION, it can be a strike, a block, footwork to attack or to evade an attack, a lock or submission and much more. With the CONCEPT of angles we use the CONCEPT of seguida or series, or in simple terms combinations. The angles are put into series, it can be as long or as short as you want. For example, a simple 3 count seguida maybe seguida 1-2, where 1-2 is the root motion, it can be executed as 1-2-1, 1-2-2, 1-2-3 and so on, the last beat changes, but the changing beat can also be put in the beggining or the middle of the root motion, this then allows you to cover all the possibilities, and remember it can be as long as you want, it can be a 100 count combination or longer! These angles can be anything, it can be defense, defense, offense or offense, defense, offense or whatever you want it to be. You can hit with your stick with angle one, angle 2 with a kick and angle one to block a strike (1-2-1) or you can punch angle one, knee angle 2 and elbow angle one (1-2-1) it's all the same! Different tools, same angle. Rather than memorizing or practicing a "move" or technique for a certain attack, you create your own expression and variations with these concepts, therefore you don't have one or two "moves" but rather as many as your imagination can come up with. In double stick for example, we don't get stuck on "Heaven six", a sinawali is not the same strike over and over, it is limitless with many, many,many variations, even our hand positons are not stuck on the same generic ready positon, because our hand positons are also ruled by the angles. A lot of FMA practitoners go to different arts to be more "complete". For example they go to Muay Thai for emptyhand striking, BJJ for grappling and so forth, they don't see that the same motion in the knife or stick can be translated in emptyhand striking or grappling (stand up or ground), and it can match these other styles and even surpass them because of the CONCEPT of seguida or series, which again allows you to make many different possibilities and variations instead of, for example, a particular "move" or two when somebody puts you in an armbar. Too often a line is drawn between the weapons and emtptyhands in FMA, there is a translation of the movements within them that makes them the same rather than different. The concepts I mentioned are just a tiny piece of what Rutano Estokada Kali teaches, with this I just want to say that I am not saying that REK is better than other FMA systems but rather, in my opinion, easier to comprehend but at the same time very complete. Gumagalang, Robert Sison _________________________________________________________________ Learn how to help protect your privacy and prevent fraud online at Tech Hacks & Scams. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/techsafety.armx --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:38:55 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] for Peter Gow and Jay de Leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Leo --- Leo Salinel wrote: > > Actually I realize I must qualify my post. All this > present hulabaloo is coming from the discussion on > Blaise Loong's "Silat Sabungin". I had hoped that that particular horse would stay dead, but it seems to have kicked its way out of the grave (joke lang). When I saw that name, I asked about it and offered suggestions. I wasn't sure how to react at first when I was corrected on the use of my own language(!). Then later on I realized, these people believe what they have learned and are willing to stand by it. I have to respect their position even as I maintained my stand that their use of the language was incorrect. > As Prof. Jocano discussed, we Filipinos often feel > that our arts are "hijacked". It was David Eke who actually brought up that point about hijacking the arts. Even as I agreed with him, I couldn't also help but ask some questions about the nature of the "hijacking" that took place. Hence my post yesterday. Regards, Bot __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:40:13 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] This is refreshing... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thank you! > Excellent post, Felipe! > > Bobbe Edmonds > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:31:29 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony C Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Firearms and the Martial Artist To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Amen Kurt, I couldn't have said it better myself. I've been involved with a Modern Arnis group for sometime now as well as interacting with others at seminars. Excluding a few police officers and military personnel, I have only met one other "gun person" in my studies...and she quit the class. The division is very deep and that is a shame because there is much to share and learn from each other. Once a fellow martial artist opined that "guns were unfair" as you pointed out. I recanted a phrase from one of the major instructors in firearms circles who suggested that perhaps the first requirement of ones choice of sidearms is that it be "unfair" (smile). WoodyTX wrote:Regarding firearms and the martial artist: Anyone who says that using a pistol in a defense situation is "too easy" or "cheating" should actually go to a IPSC or IDPA match and attempt to shoot the courses of fire they regularly use. (I'm not accusing anyone on the list of being prejudiced against firearms, but it is a fairly common response among martial artists.) If you're in Australia or England or one of the other disarmed countries, browse http://www.brianenos.com/ especially the forums. Brian Enos is a legend in the competitive pistol shooting world, and he treats competition shooting as many practical martial artists treat their art: as constantly evolving. Many of his techniques draw from martial arts, and his book, "Practical Shooting, Beyond Fundamentals" is like the "Tao of Jeet Kun Do" for the practical pistol world. It amazes me that many shooters and martial artists don't recognize the similarities between the two groups. You're both training your mind and body to defend yourself and those you love. And for those who think that outlawing swords because of the reckless behavior of a few nutcases is outrageous, welcome to the party. Kurt Schneider Austin, TX _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:36:40 -0600 From: excalibur921@ctnet.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re: restraint and control Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net was wondering if anyone has seen or works with the restraint and control regimine taught in the 2 loren christiansen videos on the subject. just wondering how valid the information is and if it would be recomended viewing. also curious about the pressure point control tactics offered within the same videos. thanks --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Rutano Estokada Kali, the difference is... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 07:30:55 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > A lot of FMA practitoners go to different arts to be more "complete". For > example they go to Muay Thai for emptyhand striking, BJJ for grappling and > so forth, they don't see that the same motion in the knife or stick can be > translated in emptyhand striking or grappling (stand up or ground)... But is this actually the case? I've only experienced a few different FMAs over the years, but thus far they all seem to follow the above approach. An angle is an angle of attack, it matters not what is being used to implement that attack. Fist, foot, shin, elbow, stick, sword, knife, etc. ??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest