Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:16:06 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #102 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Modern Arnis Ranking/my relation to the group (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. Re: 2nd German FMA Festival (Steve Klement) 3. GreatGrandmaster thought?.. (GatPuno@aol.com) 4. Spanish Term in FMA (GatPuno@aol.com) 5. Re: GreatGrandmaster thought?.. (Ray Terry) 6. Pananandata instructor list (rob mulligan) 7. Stick fighting in Israel, 1940 (Ray Terry) 8. Information on Bahala Na/Giron Arnis Escrima (Brett Douglas) 9. Michael Massie's yet another post on terminology (jay de leon) 10. when a Mindanao Muslim/Moro speaks of "Kali" (Leo Salinel) 11. thank you, Peter (Leo Salinel) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:40:54 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Modern Arnis Ranking/my relation to the group Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Modern Arnis, 1974 when I met Proffesor Remy A. Presas in President Ferdinand Marcos Birthday Sept. 11, 1974 to be exact. He gave me a pink book of Modern Arnis and he told me to study the book and he will promote to be a black belt. I was excited, I saw Willy Madla and Boy Tolentino, both Philippine Air Force, If I am not mistaken is both student of Willy Annang which is the right hand of Proffesor at that time. On the book his ranking system, said degree not dan. But he personally explained he used the Japanese theory of teaching so the kids can easily follow the easy step by step format of the art like Karate even his form is similar to a Karate Kata in Shorin ryu Karate. Anyo 4 is Tai-kyoko one in Shorin Ryu with a stick. On 1976. we went to see Willy Annang and his group in Manila and also meet Rosemarie Presas (Professor first wife). Well I was 13 years old, I was tested for brown belt, after that I went back to see Willy Annang and train with him, for my black belt test. On May of 1978, I pass the (Lakan Isa) 1st degree Black belt under Willy Annang and given the apportunity to teach in Eastern Laguna Colleges (Paete, Laguna), but most of my training really not in Modern Arnis, my movement is different that any Modern Arnis in the Philippines. I am really surprised that I pass easily to get the black belt up to the 3rd degree on 1980 easily like I just have to do basic and sparred few of them, which I easily defeated Modern Arnis in Manila during the sparring session probably I just got lucky. We also invited them to do Do Modern Arnis Demo in Paete, Laguna on 1975 which Rosemarie and Willy Annang, Willy Madla, Boy Tolentino and two more practitioner visit Paete Arnis Tournament. Remember when I met Professor I already well trained in Arnis, Eskrima, Estokada and Harimaw Buno with my Dad. I was there to do a demo in Moro-moro dance in front of President Marcos, and its happen Remy also brought few of his student to do a demo in Modern Arnis. I was impressed the way Remy Presas published a book in Arnis, I dream to published one someday I said to my self. Professor Remy Presas was surprised me when he visited me here in Florida on spring of 1993 and asked me to open Modern Arnis School in Florida, and also promised me that he will promoted me as the highest Black Belt of Modern Arnis in USA and Europe, I told him I cant accep that becaused I already teaching the Cinco Tereos, Siete Colores Arnis and Doce Pares under the Garimot System in Florida since 1989 all of sudden I will change my group into Modern Arnis. Professor was dissapointed on me. He said he will make the highest ranking Modern Arnis and he offer me a $10,000 capital to seek location of the school. I turned it down for the secon time. Then he turn around and convinced one of my new student to come to his Summer Camp to Massachussette for a week and come home with 5 degree balck belt certificate in Modern Arnis. I was engross by it, but hey that what the professor decision, what can I do, apprently he also promised Adam Castillo a $10,000 dollar to open a school here in Florida, that never happen. Adam lost his job following Professor and finally woke up to reality and stop following Remy. Even though I am not really full time student of Modern Arnis, I know what is Modern Arnis is all about, becaused I have to teach this in School during my time teaching PE in High School and colleges student. I think Remy is a good teacher but Ernesto Presas is a better than his brother, i personally see both of them and abserved. The Ranking of Modern Arnis is copy to a a Japanese ranking system, but he named them under the Tagalog terminology, Lakan for a Men and Dayang for Women. Isa (One) to Sampu (Ten) as the highest. As I remember Willy Annang is the second to Remy and Rolan Dantes the Left hand of Professor. Guro Rolan might not remember me but I was very young when I meet them, he gave me a black and white 4X6 photo of him in pose with double stick showing his muscle with his signature, we meet twice but both time, he is in rush becaused he has a movie shooting to go at that time. At one point of my training I was inpluenced by Modern Arnis Federation of the Philippines (MAFP). I got used to call Professor Ama (Father) and he called me Dodong Anak(I guess Visayan word means son). I never lost my respect to him, I was dissapointed to what he did. Just my 2 cent on Modern Arnis Ranking.... Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA E-mail: gatpuno@aol.com Website: garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Steve Klement Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 00:20:06 -0500 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: 2nd German FMA Festival Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just returned home from the FMA Festival in Dortmund, Germany via Paris, France. Masirib Cory Hanosh and myself joined Masirib Emanuel Hart this year to represent Inayan Eskrima and Inayan Systems International. We were joined by several of the IFE Instructors from all over Europe as well. I wanted to mention that the Festival was, as has been stated earlier, a great success. Probably the nicest part was being able to put faces to the names I have seen here since Ray Terry started this Digest some time ago... It was great to see everyone enjoying themselves and having a good time. At one point I thought for sure I was gonna have to do full contact with Marc Denny as he was getting anxious to go up on stage and do his demo... :) Thanks to Dieter Knuttel and Alfred Plath for all the hard work in putting on the show. "If" they decide to do this thing again... consider going - it's well worth it for sure! -- Steve Klement Inayan Masirib Guro www.inayaneskrima.com klement@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Systems International --__--__-- Message: 3 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:33:40 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] GreatGrandmaster thought?.. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/12/2004 6:50:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > Consider how many of the old timers founded their own systems. Actually > were there any that didn't? > > > Angel, Cacoy, Tatang, Floro, Remy, etc. All formed or greatly changed > their systems. > > However I agree that some 20 or 30-something year old that claims to > be the Greatgrandmaster of a system is strange and IMHO should be avoided. > > Ray Terry How many of this Grandmaster fought to each other? Very few of them fought against each other and everyone saying there arts is the best and claim never lost the fight. Guess what I agree with their claim that they are never lost the fight, why? becaused there no fight occured and they never fought so therefore they have the rights to claim his "Undefeated". Among them, only the Canete, the one I heard fought against other grandmasters the rest of the old grandmaster is only story. I often wonder why all of this Grandmaster from Visayan never got a change to fight each since their in one location or atleast is closed enough to take a boat and fight and learn to each other. I dont believed in some account that they are the champion of their home town. The town of the claimant might a small town but often the people dont lie, they tell you what they think and witness. Last year or two years ago, one of the Serrada Eskrima that I met in Orlando (World Sokeship Council) keep telling us he dont need to proved the arts becaused Grandmaster Cabales already proved it long years before them. I told him, Grandmaster might proved the arts to himself but not cover themselves, it does not mean you are already safe to walk around and tell your opponent "Hey" I dont need fight you to proved anything to you, my Grandmaster already proved it long before me. This is a sample only of the people around us claiming such thing and believing they are safe already, this is not religion, that you can say your are "save" as long as you believe to to Jesus. No disrespect to others, I am a believer of the true fighter, not using somebody else to shield against their opponent. Opponent can come one, or numbers, empty handed or armed with numerous weapon includes guns. We as a practitioner of the Martial art should know if you play with knife, you have a hundred% percent chance of being cut and got hurts. There are no true invincible like "Superman" type of hero. Just a thought.. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA E-mail: gatpuno@aol.com Website: garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:43:39 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Spanish Term in FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/12/2004 6:50:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > Being of Spanish descent, I find it curious that no one has yet addressed > the > fact that many of the terms used in the FMA are taken from the Spanish > language, and are not native to the indigenous languages of the Philippines. > One might also note that such terms are often bastardized versions of common > Spanish words (and I say that meaning no disrespect to the Filipino people - > we've only have Spanish here in the Southwest region of the U.S. for a few > hundred years, and it's already pretty different from what they speak in > Spain.) > > You must be late member, How many times we talk about here about the Spanish Term in FMA, myself and other point it out that we Filipino used Spanish term to some of the techniques becaused we were colonized by the Spain for more than 300 years. Do you know how long those years?? As I recall from my Filipino Spanish Professor that the Spanish force every Filipino to speak Spanish, that is the reason why the "Filipino Language " 50% ( Visayan, Tagalog etc.) is Spanish. Is that clear ? Es Claro senior?? Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA E-mail: gatpuno@aol.com Website: garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] GreatGrandmaster thought?.. To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 06:56:06 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Angel, Cacoy, Tatang, Floro, Remy, etc. All formed or greatly changed > > their systems. > > > > However I agree that some 20 or 30-something year old that claims to > > be the Greatgrandmaster of a system is strange and IMHO should be avoided. > > > > Ray Terry > > How many of this Grandmaster fought to each other? Very few of them fought > against each other and everyone saying there arts is the best and claim never > lost the fight. Part of the problem with this question is that many of these fellows were not in a same place at the same time, both in location and age. I guess Floro and Tatang were about the same age group, but they didn't live anywhere near each other for most of their lives. Even when they did have Masters Tournaments, Tatang wouldn't participate because they were using sticks and not blades. Truth was he was probably too old to participate, but still you have the root of a problem there. In a blade oriented art, is testing with batons a valid test of the system.?.?. Just stiring up the pot a bit. I don't disagree all that much with Guro Baet's point. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "rob mulligan" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: Lawrenc124@aol.com, Pananandta@aol.com, petebmc@optonline.net, YONTOK@aol.com, lhommedieu@hotmail.com, Panguro1@aol.com, LilShi@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:13:21 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Pananandata instructor list Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Recently there have been inquiries to me and others about persons claiming to be certified to teach Pananandata Marinas. This even included one claim to have been given a "black belt" by Punong Guro Marinas in "Ka Li". This is the official list sent to me by PG Marinas. Please take note, anyone not on the list is not currently certified; claims to the  contrary notwithstanding.                Rob Mulligan        WWW.KWIKSTIK.COM "Certification in Pananandata is only good for the year it is given and has to be renewed every year. The following are the only instructors active and in good standing in Pananandata. 1. Spencer Gee 2. Ueli Laeng  3. Eric Leigh  4. Mat Marinas Jr. 5. Rob Mulligan 6. Tracy Pearce 7. Larry Schnitzer 8. Ralph White Amante P. Marinas Sr. Founder/Author, Pananandata"                         ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:19:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Stick fighting in Israel, 1940 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Stick fighting in Israel, c 1940. http://www.savateaustralia.com/Weaponry%20Essays/Walking%20Stick%20in%20Mandatory%20Palestine%20and%20Israel.htm Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Brett Douglas" To: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:51:04 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Information on Bahala Na/Giron Arnis Escrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A few days ago there was a gentleman interested in Giron Arnis Escrima and the combat worthiness of the style. I am by no means an authority, but I am a practitioner and member of the Bahala Na association. I saw your request for info and passed it on to GM Tony Somera. If you would like more info on the style feel free to check out the Bahala Na websites. You can e-mail GM Tony Somera directly from those sites for more information. www.gironarnisescrima.com or www.bahalanamartialarts.com Take care, Brett Douglas --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "jay de leon" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: theclassic33@hotmail.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:59:46 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Michael Massie's yet another post on terminology Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "...considering all the hoopla over something that is so insignificant." Just a clarification. What are you referring to, that you consider insignificant? Is it terminology in FMA, or its discussion in ED? Either way, I find the characterization puzzling, considering the passion it has engendered--"hijacking" the FMA, misrepresentation in the arts, etc. After reading the posts on this thread, the impression I get is that, for many, the issue ranges from annoying (Rocky et.al.), to troubling (Denny, Jocano, et. al.), to mission-critical (my tocayo Jay Saguisabal, Eke, et. al.). True, we all need to get past it, but it is by no means insignificant. Jay de Leon P.S. Sidebar to Rocky. I mean that you find the issue of terminology annoying to you, since you are so terminology-challenged (among other things?), and not that you are annoying. This is my chance to tell you I love your Remy and related stories. Keep them coming, fractured syntax and all. _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage – 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:35:25 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Salinel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] when a Mindanao Muslim/Moro speaks of "Kali" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net .....chances are, he is referring to the sword we call "kris" in English and "kalis" in Visayan/Tagalog. As discussed previously by Tinny Macachor and Dr. Ned Nepangue, both Cebuano eskrima masters who also did some research and study on FMA misconceptions and possible true historical origins and developments, even the so-called martial art "kali" is unknown to the Moros or Moslems of Mindanao. When you mention "kali" to them, they would say "Oh, yes, kali..." and then bring out their kris swords. Tinni once put it quite comically when he told of how he asked a Muslim trader about the kali, and the Muslim guy said, "Bili ka na lang ng kumot ko, bay, walay kali"....(in English: "just buy one of my mats, friend, I don't have KRIS SWORDS here.") From that it's obvioius that the word kali as used there refers to a sword, not to a martial system or art. But then there's the rub--we can't get away from the fact that GM Villabrille made use of the word "kali". And in 1957, GM Placido Yambao mentions "kali" as a root or ancestral art of today's arnis and eskrima in the very first book ever published in the world about FMA "Mga Karunungan ng Larong Arnis". WHERE DID HE GET THAT? And why does GM Villabrille's and all our accounts of the mother art "kali" jibe with GM Yambao's? I still think it's possible that somewhere in the hitnerlands there could be some people using the word "kali". ===== Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:53:34 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Salinel To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] thank you, Peter Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Peter Gow, Thank you for your reply. BTW, when I was referring to someone who would dispute with me after I try to reason with them, I wasn't making any reference to you at all, please remember that (in case people get the wrong ideas). I was referring to someone who could still be lurking on this digest and who got so vitriolic with me when I told him that honestly speaking, there's no basis for saying that such-and-such is a martial art system here, and that it perhaps could be just a coined word for biting maneuvers done in a clinch, that he started resorting to fight challenges. :) Prof. Bot Jocano, I appreciate your sincerity, sir. Sure, we Flips will sometimes want to give advice on how to properly spell or conjugate Filipino verbs and string words together, but ultimately our Western brothers have as much right as we do with their English and Spanish language, to use ours even if in a mistaken or corrupted way. Some Spanish terms we somehow "twisted" along 300 years of history were "alta vez" (aldabis), "arnes" (arnis), and a host of others. We Flips also made curious use of English ourselves, in phrases such as "Super Cuentada" and "Lightning Scientific Arnis", among others. In the end, it's all about the effectivity of our techniques and the recognizeability of their Filipino roots. ===== Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest