Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 03:02:14 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #103 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. A Parting Yip on ownership and hijacking? (Marc Denny) 2. PS to Parting Yip (Marc Denny) 3. Small correction (Marc Denny) 4. Re-Modern Arnis Rank (rocky pasiwk) 5. What was the question? (Marc Denny) 6. More GM Stuff (rocky pasiwk) 7. Fights et al (rich parsons) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:38:38 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] A Parting Yip on ownership and hijacking? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Thanks to all for the various thoughtful posts from across the spectrum of perspectives on "ownership and hijacking". A parting yip from me for now (for vampire-like surely this will rise from the dead yet again): First, I think it was David who took my comments about criticisms of the use of the term "Kali" to be responsive to him. I regret I was not clear-- my comments were not aimed at him, rather I was thinking more generically. For example, see the thread on our forum at http://www.dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=193&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 It started out about the titles of Filipino teachers and wandered, as it so often does, to the use of the term "Kali". The thread is rather long but there are several interesting and seemingly knowledgeable as well as opionated posts on it. It recently started up again (on page 9) with a post purporting to be an exchange between GT Gaje and someone. As noted in the follow-up posts, the provenance of the post is not yet ascertained but it entertaining nevertheless. Anyway, those of you who have not yet had their fill of these matters or who are looking for some interesting posts in this regard, may find the thread worth the read. Second, there were posts about Kali with the "just don't call it the mother art" etc. For the record, we of DBMA never have done so. As I have amply demonstrated over the years here on ED and elsewhere, terminological accuracy and historical precision elude me, and so rather than engage in an inherently doomed Sisyphean struggle, for the most part I use English and avoid Filipino history except in the blandest and most generic of ways. Third, as for "ownership and hijacking": There is no purity problem presented when a Filipino, e.g. Cacoy Canete, takes a "foreign" system such as judo and blends it into his system- Eskrido. However, when a foreigner, e.g. an American, does so difficult questions are presented. At what point does the result become something which should no longer be called FMA? As a foreigner who does bring non-Filipino elements into the system I feel this question acutely. I FEEL the DBMA system to be FMA at its core and in its heart, yet there are substantial non-FMA elements as well. Perhaps if I were a Filipino it could be safely said that I do what Filipinos have always done-- absorb what is useful and the resultant blend could safely be called FMA-- but I am not. I am American. On the other hand, if as soon as I bring non-FMA elements into the system I cease to call it FMA, am I not guilty of ripping off the FMA by not giving credit? -- for we would be nothing without the FMA. On the third hand ;-) sometimes it is nice/necessary to have a simple answer and not a paragraph of lawyerly quibbles. At present I handle this by giving different answers according to my feel of the situation. For example, if I am dealing with a reporter with the concentration span of a television commercial, I might just say Kali or FMA. If the circumstances are such that my listener is my thoughtful and informed about FMA things, I might say "that we are FMA based with other things thrown in too" or "impure FMA". For a more scholarly person I might say that we are based around the Majadpahit (hell, am I even spelling that right?) Empire, with the emphasis on central/southern Philippines with a dose of BJJ. But mostly I say "Screw it!" and just call what we do "Kali". Perhaps this is where the term is going-- Kali is what happens to the FMA when they come to America? Love, peace, happiness and milkbones to all, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:52:11 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] PS to Parting Yip Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: No sooner than I sent my post than I thought of an additional and important point I would like to make. There was an exchange in the last two days concerning the education level of the men who lived the art and who brought it to America that reminded me of the beginning of the Don Juan books by Carlos Castaneda (BTW recently I heard a rumor that CC was Filipino-- anyone have anything on this?) wherein CC is a graduate anthropology student from UCLA and Juan Matus a poor Yaqui indian. CC condescends to JM who likewise condescends to CC-- all the while wondering how it can be that the Powers have sent him such an idiot to be his disciple. In my scant dealings with some of the Juan Matuses of the Philippines, more than once I have been that idiot. The inner logic of the FMA resonates to the vibrations of the Philippines and IMHO one would always be well advised to look to the quality players from the homeland of the art as the point of reference. The compliments that warm my heart the most are those from these men and likewise the suggestions I take most to heart come from these men. Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:53:30 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Small correction Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof: > Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 13:56:41 -0000 > From: "Patrick Davies" > To: > >There was a conversation on this list a while ago on that subject. > Look for "knife" and "grappling" in the archives. Marc Denny responded > to a similar query. I believe he said that when he tried grappling with > a knife with one of the Machado brothers (I think it was), he at first > got the upperhand, but once Jean-Jacques realized what was happening, he > pretty effectively smothered the weapon. If that's not correct, maybe > Marc can jump in. It was Eric (Top Dog) and John Machado. yip, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:52:26 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re-Modern Arnis Rank Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Gm Gat Puno Wrote: >1974 when I met Professor Remy A. Presas in President Ferdinand Marcos >Birthday Sept. 11, 1974 to be exact. He gave me a pink book of Modern Arnis >and he >told me to study the book and he will promote to be a black belt. I was >excited, I saw Willy Madla and Boy Tolentino, both Philippine Air Force, If I am >not >mistaken is both student of Willy Annang which is the right hand of Proffesor >at that time. On the book his ranking system, said degree not dan. But he >personally Unfortunately I believe all of what you have written to be true. Professor wanted so deparately to spread his are, that he often did things that were not always the right thing. You have to remember one thing Remy at heart as a fighter, I think GM Tobada, Gm Buot, even GM Gaji and GM Canete' recognize this. So once a fighter always a fighter, and of course he probably always had a little inner turmoil going on within himself. I am sure he new that many of the people he promoted to blackbelt were undeserving of it, so when someone like you comes along who has real ability and knows what real fighting is like, he tried very hard to pull you in, this would give more stability and quality to his group. So while it may have been the wrong way he was actually complimenting you on your ability. While I may not have your full contact absolutely no pad experience I did run with a Pekiti group that liked to fight an off shoot of Irwin Ballarta's group, we used the fencing masks and live stick with light knee and elbow pads. Remy like that in me, to a point where he took me in and taght me Balintawak and hooked me up wit hGm Buot, and everytime he met guys that had a little bit of grit to them he tried to pull them in. I believe Ray Terry e-mailed me almost 10 yeas ago about a situation involving on of his instructors that basically went through what you did. At any rate he was still a hell of a man and opened the doors for lots of others, and did much to help the rest of us appreciate all the great things the Filipino people have to offer. Rocky --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 13:46:15 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] What was the question? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: In the last few days someone posted a thoughtful question about our empty hand system and somehow I can't find it. Would whoever it was be so kind as post it again or email it to me? TIA, Crafty --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:45:12 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] More GM Stuff Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The un defeated Grand Master!! GM Gat wrote: >How many of this Grandmaster fought to each other? Very few of them fought > against each other and everyone saying there arts is the best and claim never > lost the fight. Its like I say in the book of Rock " If so many great Masters fought to the death, how come their is so many great Masters?" My father who was a former Katch as Katch Can fighter before WWII and lived in England for two years and fought at the Weigans (sp) snake pit, use to tease me about us Karate guys jumping up and down in our pajamas and slapping each other and scoring points. So when the first UFC came on T.V. I got kinda geeked up and told my dad all about the Gracies and how Helio had never lost a fight, my dad just smiled and said ok lets watch it. So I pay the $50.00 for pay per view and one of the first fights we see is Royce, we watch it for about 5 minutes my dad gets up turns off the T.V. and says lets go get some Ice Cream!!! I was like dad I just paid $50.00 for that, he said well you got screwed if you wanna watch someone roll on the ground and dry hump someone's leg for a half hour hell the dog will do that for free!!!. So we went and got Ice Cream on the way he says so these guys claim to never have lost a fight!! I said yes, he said I don't believe it he said maybe they never lost a dry hump competition but not a fight cause they don't know what a NHB fight is. In Katch as Katch Can, their are no rules you can bite, pull hair, Eye gouge, break fingers, even bite fingers off, that's NHB'd. I basically couldn't argue with him, after all he was the one that was blind in one eye hand had a chunk of his shin missing in the shape of a human bite! So its basically a matter of how you look at things I guess. I know my first full contact Eskrima match lasted less that 5 seconds I went high he went low, he broke my shin I laid on the ground in the fetal eskrimador position, which I made famous!! It was that fast. Anyone who claims to have never lost a fight or never been hit in a fight has probably never fought. I use to pride my self on having a hard head, in 5 years at the kronk gym and the Dearborn center I had never been knocked down, I had lost fights but never been knocked down, till I fought this old geezer twice my age, he hit me so hard I still haven't felt the full effect, fact is I fell face first to the canvas, which was strange since I fell on my back!!!!!!! :-) Anyways the longer you do Martial Arts the more you develop a resistance to B.S, I pretty much just let people tell me what ever they want, if its important for them to believe a certain way, hey let them go, life is to short. P.S I in no way am trying to stir up anything with the BJJ guys I happen to think very highly of them, I was simply relating a story from my father. I personally think the UFC fighters are plenty realistic for me, I have no intention of telling them other wise.!!!! >.Last year or two years ago, one of the Serrada Eskrima that I met in Orlando >(World Sokeship Council) keep telling us he don't need to proved the arts >becaused Grandmaster Cabales already proved it long years before them. I told >him, >Grandmaster might proved the arts to himself but not cover themselves, it does >not mean you are already safe to walk around and tell your opponent "Hey" I >dont need fight you to proved anything My question here is did this guy tell everyone how tough or great he is, because if he did then I support your point. But if he didn't and he simply like's to pass on his teachings to others what is the point! Not everyone claims to be a great fighter or even wants to fight. This is a big problem with Modern Arnis, Professors primary intent with Modern Arnis was to open peoples eyes to Filipino culture and to teach basic self defense. While you and Gm Toabada, Gm Gaji and others concentrate more on teaching someone to be an Eskrimador, a real fighter, that is not everyone's goal. So as long as they don't make any outrageous claims I don't see the problem. In today's day and age not everyone can fight hard and play hard, they have jobs and other responsibilities. I myself no longer require my guys to fight full contact as I get older I realize that it just isn't called for that much anymore! I personally think its good to test yourself once and a while,but as you get older have kids and stuff your priority changes. In my case years ago if someone was to break into my house at night I might have had a completely different mind set then I do now, nowadays with a wife and 3 kids anyone coming through my window at night I will not be karate chopping or playing Mr. stick fighter with them, no I think instead my old friend Walter P will be introducing the inside of their heads to the paint on my walls if you know what I mean. Everyone does the Martial Arts for different reason, and I don't think you have to be a tough guy to teach someone else self defense. I do agree that the term Grand master is thrown around way to much, hell I think the word Master is thrown around to much, I have been involved with Martial arts for 32 yeas now since I was 6 years old,and I don't consider my self a master at anything, except maybe getting into trouble now and then, I still am not at one with the world, I still haven't mastered the touch of death!! I still can't master the art of having multiple opponents attack me one at a time like in the Bruce Lee Movies, the few times I got into it with more than one person they came at me all at once and used my head like a punching bag, and I still can't master the art of not bleeding when someone punches me in the mouth, I watch the great Sean Cluade Van Dam get kick 10 -15 times in the mouth with boots on and he doesn't even bleed, man their is a real master!!! ;-) Rocky --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:15:48 -0800 (PST) From: rich parsons To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Fights et al Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Abon Baet, No disrespect taken. I also like yuor post on your connction with Remy Presas. I appricate your points, as some of us also saw this side of the man. As to fights, does it require blood to be a fight or hard contact? Could it be resolved by/with some one of better timing just placing their cane upside the opponents head or knee without impact? Or would impact and pain and or blood be required? I know Remy Presas faught, did he fight any of the other GM's out there? I cannot confirm this eihter way. I do know he was going to fight Delfin Lopez and he decided to leave, instead of facing Delfin Lopez and his stick and 45 techniques. I also know that Anciong Bacon also faught, as is evidence by his jail time. Was it against a GM? No it was not, yet those figths did exist. I know that Anciong Bacon and other seniors of the Balintawak Club were friendly with the Doces Pares. All animosity was between students and students of students and in thier pride of their art. I also know that Remy Presas told me that there were people better than him with the stick. Even when asked by wide eye youths like myself, he wuodl reply that there were others here in the USA and in the PI that were as good or better. So, is this respect for others who train? Was this recognition of talent and skill? Or was this just a man trying to educate a youth that it is not the art, or the leader of the art, but what you as a person puts into your own training? Just my thoughts, and no disrespect meant. Message: 3 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:33:40 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] GreatGrandmaster thought?.. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/12/2004 6:50:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > Consider how many of the old timers founded their own systems. Actually > were there any that didn't? > > > Angel, Cacoy, Tatang, Floro, Remy, etc. All formed or greatly changed > their systems. > > However I agree that some 20 or 30-something year old that claims to > be the Greatgrandmaster of a system is strange and IMHO should be avoided. > > Ray Terry How many of this Grandmaster fought to each other? Very few of them fought against each other and everyone saying there arts is the best and claim never lost the fight. Guess what I agree with their claim that they are never lost the fight, why? becaused there no fight occured and they never fought so therefore they have the rights to claim his "Undefeated". Among them, only the Canete, the one I heard fought against other grandmasters the rest of the old grandmaster is only story. I often wonder why all of this Grandmaster from Visayan never got a change to fight each since their in one location or atleast is closed enough to take a boat and fight and learn to each other. I dont believed in some account that they are the champion of their home town. The town of the claimant might a small town but often the people dont lie, they tell you what they think and witness. . . . No disrespect to others, I am a believer of the true fighter, not using somebody else to shield against their opponent. Opponent can come one, or numbers, empty handed or armed with numerous weapon includes guns. We as a practitioner of the Martial art should know if you play with knife, you have a hundred% percent chance of being cut and got hurts. There are no true invincible like "Superman" type of hero. Just a thought.. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA E-mail: gatpuno@aol.com Website: garimot.com -- __--__-- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. 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