Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:50:07 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #104 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Good point for Tatang/Manong (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. Pananadata/Lanada (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. Re: Stick fighting in Israel, 1940 (DenverAMA@aol.com) 4. Do they really? (RJ Sison) 5. Re: yet another post on terminology (Felipe Jocano) 6. Re: when a Mindanao Muslim/Moro speaks of "Kali" (Felipe Jocano) 7. About GM Cacoy... (Bobster) 8. Re: About GM Cacoy... (Ray Terry) 9. terms, Spanish, etc. (Michael Massie) 10. Remy's fights (rocky pasiwk) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:56:35 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Good point for Tatang/Manong Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Part of the problem with this question is that many of these fellows > were not in a same place at the same time, both in location and age. I > guess Floro and Tatang were about the same age group, but they didn't live > anywhere near each other for most of their lives. > > Even when they did have Masters Tournaments, Tatang wouldn't participate > because they were using sticks and not blades. Truth was he was probably > too old to participate, but still you have the root of a problem there. > In a blade oriented art, is testing with batons a valid test of the > This points is a valid reason of the Tatang and other old Manongs specially the one who lives here in US. Philippines is also not to close to each other and cheap to go to other places, some of them probably no means to pay their travel expenses. Anyway, my question is just raised to those "poppers" and "humpers" that keep popping up and talk big but cannot back it up. I never lost respect to old Manong whom help the FMA to be part of the US and European Martial arts landscape. But remember, all of the stick techniques is really meant for blades. The stick is only used for training purposes for blades. But this is not means that the stick is less effective than the blades or the blades is less effective than stick vice versa. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA E-mail: gatpuno@aol.com Website: garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 22:27:49 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Pananadata/Lanada Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Recently there have been inquiries to me and others about persons > claiming to be certified to teach Pananandata Marinas. > This even included one claim to have been given a "black belt" by Punong > Guro Marinas in "Ka Li". > This is the official list sent to me by PG Marinas. > Please take note, anyone not on the list is not currently certified; > claims to the contrary notwithstanding. > > This situation is common my friends. I also heard your instructor GM Marinas is not really know Arnis until he learned it from GM Lanada, in Manila and Lanada himself cursing GM Marinas for stilling his book to be published. I heard this in Manila long ago on late 70's early 80's. I heard that GM Marinas studied Aikido and asked GM Lanada to teach him arnis and later fouded the Pananandata, I am not sure who is s-telling the truth. Since I never met both GM I just want to raised the question asked this question and rumors if is true? Just curios.. who is who? Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA E-mail: gatpuno@aol.com Website: garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: DenverAMA@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 23:57:58 EST Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Stick fighting in Israel, 1940 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Very cool. Thank you. > Stick fighting in Israel, c 1940. > > http://www.savateaustralia.com/Weaponry%20Essays/Walking%20Stick%20in%20Manda > tory%20Palestine%20and%20Israel.htm > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "RJ Sison" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 05:22:44 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Do they really? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net RE:/ "But is this actually the case? I've only experienced a few different FMAs over the years, but thus far they all seem to follow the above approach. An angle is an angle of attack, it matters not what is being used to implement that attack. Fist, foot, shin, elbow, stick, sword, knife, etc."---Ray Terry ---"If what you say is true, that all FMA systems that you've experienced follow the same approach as Rutano Estokada Kali, meaning that they all also fully understand and practice the concept that all the motions and angles from the stick and/or knife movements can be translated to panuntukan/sikaran and dumog, and also, as you said in your reply, that they all feel that"... An angle is an angle of attack, it matters not what is being used to implement that attack. Fist, foot, shin, elbow, stick, sword, knife, etc." Then why is it that almost all FMA systems, even the ones founded by great masters, admit to using their background in Aikido and/or Judo for their grappling, such as GM Cacoy Canete of Doce Pares. In Bailntawak, a system that a fellow REK practitioner use to practice, teaches you until you get to the instuctor level and then encourages you to take up another style (ie:/ jiu-jitsu, wing-chun, etc.) and mix it in with your Balintawak to make you complete. In additon, through many articles in magazines, surfing the net, and more importantly fellow FMA practioners that I've met, that come from well known FMA systems and styles, I have learned and come to understand that almost all the FMA systems out there do not even translate their knowledge in sticks and/or knives into empty hands, elbows, knees, kicks, etc. and dumog. If they do it is very limited, just a small part of their curriculum, either a few open hand strikes or punces, sometimes not even any incorporations of elbows, knees and specially kicks. Some claim to teach dumog, but again nothing but just a handful of joint locks, and takedowns, shown as one or two techniques with no or little variations, some have even reduced it to "push and pull" motions as what Paul Vunak has done.These and many more points tell me that they do not understand their system well, that they have put a limit on FMA and it's abilities as a truly complete martial arts system." Once again, my post is not to put put down or discredit other FMA systems, but just a little experience and observation I have and want to share with all of you, in order to make us all as FMA practitoners think about what we really understand as FMA, we have to do this in order to help ourselves understand and therefore help FMA as a whole. Gumagalang at Nag-papaalala, (respectfully reminding) Robert Sison _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:22:29 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] yet another post on terminology To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Michael; With all due respect, as Gat Puno Baet and Jay de Leon have pointed out, the issue on terminology is not that trivial. By itself, it can be trivial or inconsequential - after all, when using terms from another language, mistakes can happen. However, when this is connected with another issue, that of representing the style in question as being from the Philippines, then the issue of hijacking rears its head - hence the wandering of the discussion from the correct terms to hijacking. The said claim was questioned since to native speakers, the syntax of the name was wrong, and therefore, how can the art be proven to be from the Philippines? In fairness to all concerned, the person who made the initial post clarified what was meant by his posting, and personally I appreciate his honesty and attempts to set things right. We had a number of exchanges off the list, and I find him to be a gentleman. With that, and the further clarification of the training source of the originator of the art, I find that to be enough. However, the questions of whether or not there was any hijacking going on have remained - which I think are inevitable given the circumstances. Reading all of these, I ask myself this question - was there or not hijacking going on? I would prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and say well, mistakes have been made, but also attempts to set them right have also been made. With regards to the Spanish terms in the different Philipppine languages, the situation in the present (language wrangle) and the historical situation of Spanish are not comparable, as Gat Puno has pointed out. Spanish was imposed on our people for four hundred years, thus the inevitable influence on our languages. This situation, on the other hand, is where a non-native speaker uses terms from one of our languages, however rightly or wrongly. Bot --- Michael Massie wrote: > Being of Spanish descent, I find it curious that no > one has yet addressed the > fact that many of the terms used in the FMA are > taken from the Spanish > language, and are not native to the indigenous > languages of the Philippines. > One might also note that such terms are often > bastardized versions of common > Spanish words (and I say that meaning no disrespect > to the Filipino people - > we've only have Spanish here in the Southwest region > of the U.S. for a few > hundred years, and it's already pretty different > from what they speak in > Spain.) > > I just thought that it was worth pointing out, > considering all the hoopla over > something that is so insignificant. > > Michael D. Massie > MD Marketing, LLC > E-mail massie@small-dojo-big-profits.com > Web www.small-dojo-big-profits.com > > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ > "It is not the critic who counts: not the man who > points out how the strong > man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have > done better. The credit > belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, > whose face is marred by dust > and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs > and comes up short again > and again, because there is no effort without error > or shortcoming, but who > knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, > who spends himself for a > worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, > the triumph of high > achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at > least he fails while > daring greatly, so that his place shall never be > with those cold and timid > souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." > > > President Theodore Roosevelt > "Citizenship in a Republic," > Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910 > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 02:46:54 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] when a Mindanao Muslim/Moro speaks of "Kali" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reminds me of "te" which means hand, also used to refer to a fighting art....Familiar word, isn't it? Bot --- Leo Salinel wrote: > .....chances are, he is referring to the sword we > call > "kris" in English and "kalis" in Visayan/Tagalog. As > discussed previously by Tinny Macachor and Dr. Ned > Nepangue, both Cebuano eskrima masters who also did > some research and study on FMA misconceptions and > possible true historical origins and developments, > even the so-called martial art "kali" is unknown to > the Moros or Moslems of Mindanao. When you mention > "kali" to them, they would say "Oh, yes, kali..." > and > then bring out their kris swords. > > Tinni once put it quite comically when he told of > how > he asked a Muslim trader about the kali, and the > Muslim guy said, "Bili ka na lang ng kumot ko, bay, > walay kali"....(in English: "just buy one of my > mats, > friend, I don't have KRIS SWORDS here.") From that > it's obvioius that the word kali as used there > refers > to a sword, not to a martial system or art. > > But then there's the rub--we can't get away from the > fact that GM Villabrille made use of the word > "kali". > And in 1957, GM Placido Yambao mentions "kali" as a > root or ancestral art of today's arnis and eskrima > in > the very first book ever published in the world > about > FMA "Mga Karunungan ng Larong Arnis". WHERE DID HE > GET > THAT? And why does GM Villabrille's and all our > accounts of the mother art "kali" jibe with GM > Yambao's? > > I still think it's possible that somewhere in the > hitnerlands there could be some people using the > word "kali". > > ===== > Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! > http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster > http://search.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Bobster" To: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:14:34 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] About GM Cacoy... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >"I know that Anciong Bacon and other seniors of the Balintawak Club were friendly with the Doces Pares. All animosity was between students and students of students and in their pride of their art."< rich parsons Great post, Rich. I just wanted to comment on this, because I drove GM Cacoy up from Portland to Seattle a couple of years ago. We had a long talk about history, and I bluntly asked him about Balintawak, death matches, etc. He said much the same thing; "I was never enemies with Bacon. We would meet at places where they sometimes held cockfights, our students would fight, and there would be sometimes a name called. But whenever we saw each other on the street, I always said "Hello, how are you my friend?" and we would get some coffee, or see a movie" This from Grandmaster Cacoy Canete, verbatim. After all I had heard from BOTH sides of the camp, about challenges and animosity, the man himself says this. Now, if I could just get him & everybody else to stop calling me "Baboy"...! Bobbe (not Baboy) Edmonds --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] About GM Cacoy... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:54:04 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Great post, Rich. I just wanted to comment on this, because I drove GM Cacoy > up from Portland to Seattle a couple of years ago. We had a long talk about > history, and I bluntly asked him about Balintawak, death matches, etc. He > said much the same thing; "I was never enemies with Bacon. We would meet at > places where they sometimes held cockfights, our students would fight, and > there would be sometimes a name called. But whenever we saw each other on > the street, I always said "Hello, how are you my friend?" and we would get > some coffee, or see a movie" I would agree with Baboy :) about how Gm Cacoy felt about Gm Bacon. He indicated several times that he was one of the top fighters in the old Doce Pares group and wished that he hadn't split from DP after WWII. He clearly had great respect for Bacon. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Michael Massie" To: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 08:59:20 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] terms, Spanish, etc. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net First, let me say that no disrespect to anyone in particular was intended in my most recent post. Yes, I am aware of the Spanish occupation of the Philippines. Yes, I realize that those "nasty" Europeans forced their culture on you, as they did with the Africans, South Americans, North American natives, etc. The Philippines have no monopoly on cultural subjugation and suffering at the hands of the Western Europeans. Certain of my ancestors were disenfranchised by the Spanish occupation of Mexico as well, had their culture destroyed, their land taken, their peoples killed - I could go on and on. So, I understand GatPuno's point. No need to get hostile - you are preaching to the choir, as it were. Still, I must point out that it is quite amusing to see people get bent out of shape over this terminology issue, when much of the common terminology used in the FMA is in fact an adaptation of a language that is not native to the Philippines. Once again, no offense was intended - I am just stating (or restating, it appears) a fact. As for Jay de Leon's query, my position is this: It is the practice and the individual that is important, *not* the terminology and dogma. So, I could care less whether a person calls a technique an abaniko strike, a fan, a horizontal overhead strike, or whatever other term works for them. The authenticity of their practice, IMHO, is evident when stick, blade, or bone meets flesh - *not* because they use precisely the proper terminology on an internet discussion forum. If correct terminology equated to skill, hell, I'd never train again - I'd just go take a foreign language class at Berlitz. Still, I'm glad to see that people like GatPuno are so fiercely proud of their heritage and culture. Even though I don't personally believe that the terminology issue is a big deal, I can respect the fact that other people might. That's why I agreed with what David Eke had to say about finding a middle ground. Sometimes, you just have to "agree to disagree"; otherwise, you'll just spend all your time arguing and nitpicking, which leads to feuds, splits, dissention, hostility, and a whole host of other issues that hinder the exchange of knowledge and technique among martial artists. And, that hurts all of us, whether we want to admit it or not. Michael D. Massie MD Marketing, LLC E-mail massie@small-dojo-big-profits.com Web www.small-dojo-big-profits.com ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." President Theodore Roosevelt "Citizenship in a Republic," Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910 --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:38:03 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Remy's fights Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rich Wrote: >I also know that Remy Presas told me that there were >people better than him with the stick. Even when asked >by wide eye youths like myself, he would reply that >there were others here in the USA and in the PI that >were as good or better. So, is this respect for others >who train? Was this recognition of talent and skill? >Or was this just a man trying to educate a youth that >it is not the art, or the leader of the art, but what >you as a person puts into your own training? >Just my thoughts, and no disrespect meant. This is what I always thought was cool about Remy he never claimed to have beaten everyone or to be the best. Gm Gat is right as far as to many people claim to be the best, or what ever. Remy even use to tell a story about beating up a couple of guys with a pipe rolled up in a magazine, thus impressing his uncle, who he was trying to get a job from, of course he never told anyone about the stick/pipe hidden in the magazine. Remy also was smart enough to know when to let things go, as he did with Delphane Lopez, but most account Remy was a better Fighter, but he new Delphane would shoot him, so time to move on, seems logical to me. I remember seeing a tape of an older Filipino Gm who claims he killed so many men in duel he can't even remember. I had posted this some years ago, how come GM Bacon kills a man in self defense and goes to jail, yet this guy walks around killing at will and doesn't get into trouble!!! I also think that some of these claims would bother me if I were Filipino, because it makes it seem like the Philippines is completely lawless and savage, and even though I have yet to visit there, I don't believe this is true, I know they have some political problems know but they are people just like anyone else, and I don't believe that 50 or 60 years ago you could just wonder around aimlessly and kill people. Anyways just my 2 cents. P.s Does anyone got any Filipino recipes that would like to share, I am self teaching myself to cook Filipino food!! Rocky --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest