Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:22:25 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #107 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. DBMA "Kali Tudo" (tm) (Marc Denny) 2. Re: Undefeated - Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #105 (Bart Hubbard) 3. simple wisdom (Michael Massie) 4. Thats Open forum/sickening topic is raised (GatPuno@aol.com) 5. Doce Pares' Footwork (rocky pasiwk) 6. Re: Thats Open forum/sickening topic is raised (Ray Terry) 7. One the same page (rocky pasiwk) 8. Re: Doce Pares' Footwork (Ray Terry) 9. More rank stuff (rocky pasiwk) 10. Grand Master Jerson Nene Tortal in Terre Haute IN. (Stickfighter87@aol.com) 11. RE: terminology (David Eke) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:24:20 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] DBMA "Kali Tudo" (tm) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Tom Furman asked: > How much material exists on the Bando stickgrappling that is mentioned by > Crafty Dog and influenced by Dr. Gyi?? I am particularly interested in the use of > the lanyard for choking as a follow up to the actual stick engagement at > grappling range. What is the level of diversification vs the sarong, etc.? > Guro Inosanto showed the options of carrying a wounded warrior with the 34" > stick and a few other variables that exposed apparently just the tip of the > technical iceberg relative to the Maung Gyi material. My curiosity is on fire. Bando is an important influence on DBMA, not only in certain specific techniques, but also in conceptual guidance which Dr. Gyi has been kind enough to share with me. As you suspect, Bando has tremendous depth in this area. Members of the DBMA Association (Warning! Advertisement ahead!) who have purchased the Vid-lesson titled "Stick Grappling" have seen a portion of the material of the stick sub-system of Bando Python. This material can be seen in action in one of my fights in "A Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack". There is also the Bando Letha Yoga material with stick seen in the DBMAA Vid-lesson "Bando Healing". As for the lanyard, I confess to note having explored this as fully as I should. Much, if not most of the material has lethal potential. > This question is specifically to Crafty and students. Are you satisfied with > your developments as far as Kali-Tudo (TM) and its current level of > efficiency?? When are we going to see a DVD or text on your material?? You have been > exposed to many rich sources like Inosanto/Lacoste, Bukti Negara, Mande Muda, > Machado Brothers, Rico Chippiarelli, Larry Hartsell, Erik Paulson, and Leo Gaje. > I would love to see what the Dog Brothers battle tempered version of Southeast > Asian MMA looks like. Before entering into the answer, in the interest of precision I must note that although I have the highest regard for him, I have only minimal training with Sifu Larry Hartsell. As for DBMA's Kali Tudo (BTW thanks for noting the TM) I have found this to be a thoroughly intriguing area and no I am not satisfied yet-- nor should I ever be :-) It is fair to wonder at the absence of Kali from The Cage so far, but FWIW I am of the opinion that Kali has a tremendous amount to offer in the MMA arena and wish I were of an age to show exactly that. But I am not and must limit myself to circumstances such as Rico's MMA class at RAW. Most of the members of the class are pro and semi-pro fighters in their 20s and 30s and I readily admit to often being coddled in deference to my age. That said, the mouthpieces are in and the NHB gloves are on as we play. In this context, interspersed amongst my frequent taps there are moments when it all comes together quite nicely and a couple of the guys have shown some interest. Perhaps more to the point, the students with whom I have worked this material have had some good successes too-- as well as failures. I believe in the material and frankly, believe it to be cutting edge (translation-- I have a hard time sharing it). So far the only thing I've put out is a Vid-lesson of "The Running Dog Game" (Kali Tudo against the guard) available only to people who train with me privately. The Standing striking game requires a certain level of mastery of the siniwali footwork and siniwali stick including the "Los Triques game"-- which tends to filter out the typical MMA kind of guy who simply is mentally unwilling to really do triangles and wave his arms around like two sticks. > Thanks for your time, --Tom Furman www.physicalstrategies.com Thanks for the nice question. Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Bart Hubbard" To: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:29:43 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Undefeated - Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #105 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey All, I kind of take an issue with people who tout "undefeated" about their fights, but I understand the logic. For instance, I met a guy at a stickfighting tournament I was in who was just taking video. We talked a bit and traded background info and he told me he didn't want to fight in the tournament because he wanted to keep his "undefeated" status. He only wanted to fight people that he knew he could beat. If we were talking about "death matches" I could understand. But we were talking about fights that were civilized and involved padded armour and other sparring gear. Chances are he would not walk away seriously injured. People like that guy are not looking at tournament fighting as a "training tool" like I do. Somewhere along the line they have confused tournament fighting with "real fighting" or they want to maintain the ability to use "undefeated" as an advertising tool. In my opinion you can learn alot from a serious trouncing in a tournament. If you never go "toe to toe" with someone that's better than you, then you seriously miss out on some "learning by doing". Most would agree that some of the most developmental and essential times in a person's life are painful. But when they are through with their trial, they are transformed and they have grown as a person. When someone tells me that they're "undefeated", I have come to not believe that means they are an ultimate "badass" but rather that they are most likely somewhat afraid to put themselves on the spot and do some hard growing. It makes me question their other credentials more closely. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Michael Massie" To: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:28:49 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] simple wisdom Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Alex wrote: "I remember asking my instructors for names particularly GM Ernesto Preasas and Tatang ILustrisimo, they would both say that you would not need to know the name of what hit you. You need to know how to fight with it and to survive. Not said verbatim but in similar ways." So funny, and yet oh so true. Thanks for sharing that anecdote, and your insights on having respect for your art. Michael D. Massie MD Marketing, LLC E-mail massie@small-dojo-big-profits.com Web www.small-dojo-big-profits.com ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." President Theodore Roosevelt "Citizenship in a Republic," Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23 --__--__-- Message: 4 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 09:11:59 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Thats Open forum/sickening topic is raised Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/13/04 9:28:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > To everyone - Maybe it's just me but, I'm sick of > opening up my e-mail everyday and reading about yet > another case of "he stole my rank" or "he doesn't > deserve his rank". Who cares!! Rank is crap. Bottom > line is, can you defend yourself? If the answer is > yes, then shut up and be happy because that's what I > thought it was all about. If rank is all you care > about and silly titles, then I will have to remove my > name from this mailing list. I'm interested in > reading about techniques and other practical > information not fluff. > > ===== > **JASON COUTURE** > > To **JASON COUTURE**, This is reason we have this forum, its open for every topic you want to bring to the table. If you dont like the topic just simply point your mouse to the delete and press. There's a lot of time, I dont want to read the topic, why it becaused that not interest me, that is my way of not getting involve on the topic. And if you have a question in regards of what you wanted to talk about, just simply do yourself a favor "Post" something and dont get involve to the topic that it kills you. I agree "who cares" but I tell you this, there more people on this list, not you and me only so as long as this is open to the public we have no rights to "shut off" other people of posting its might be a stupid question to you or topic, to them is finding the answer is all about. It could be personal, and brutal the answer but atleast this forum serves its purposes. And to the Max you cant take it, go ahead request to be remove to the list. We dont scares people that if he dont stop talking about their side, I would be requesting remove me from the list. We have I believed 700 member of this list, and I think you are over reacting. Throw good question and good topic sometimes and look in the positive side of this list, not your negative thoght. To me if you request to be remove, who cares, I could be careless to say that you are not going to be miss (Hindi ka kakulangan) for sure and you can ask the rest that agree with you to go along. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Reseach Center USA www.garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:36:52 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Doce Pares' Footwork Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray Wrote: >I suspect because he found it superior. Perhaps similar to why he changed the >very linear original system of DP to the curvi-linear system... it worked >better in real life intersonal encounters (or at least those he experienced). >No one system has the best "everything". I have always wanted to ask GM Cocoy about this if I ever get the privilage of meeting him, how he came about the circular foot work whan Ancion had the liniar, and I believe Momoy went back to the Liniar in San Migul. I though it was just becaue Ancing was a single stick fighter. Do you have anymore insite you could pass along on this Ray?? Rocky --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Thats Open forum/sickening topic is raised To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:02:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > And to the Max you cant take it, go ahead request to be remove to the list. There is no one to make that request to. All must unsub from the list on their own. It is easy. > .... We have I believed 700 member of this list, Actually closer to 2,000. That is why I must ignore any/all requests to subscribe or unsub someone from the list. They must be smart enough to do it themself and there is only one of me and MANY of you. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:05:05 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] One the same page Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Gm Gat Wrote: >Are we talking Professor Remy Presas to your question? If he is I would say >yes to the answer, he claims that he is the best and better than anybody. He >open said during his teenage time, he was challenge so many times in his >school, >but No, actually I was referring to your point that the Serrada guy you met did not want to fight, cause he said the art was already proven by GM Cabalis, now maybe that wasn't the exact response he should have had, maybe he should have simply said " hey I don't claim to be a great fighter and it not really my cup of tea, I just like teaching and helping people. I personally don't see the problem with that. If he really wanted to test himself, I am sure Marc Denny and his muttly crew would more then welcome him to test himself in an environment that is a well run and controlled event that they hold a couple of times a year. I don't think learning from a non fighter is a disadvantage, again it all depends on what your goals are. Bottom line most people are just wanting to learn to defend themselves and their loved ones. Bottom line what are your chance of running into a trained Eskrimador in the street or having one attack you in your home???? So most practioners just want self defense. So as long as they don't make outrageous claims again I see no problem, if they do then once again I agree with you. I have no reason to doubt you that Remy may have said what you say, I can only say he always told me he won most of his fights and lost a few, and also knew when not to fight , like with Delphane Lopez. I do agree that Remy was instrumental in spreading the knowledge of the Filipino arts. I think what he did on his own was pretty impressive, but like Ray has said so many times, lets not forget about GM Cabalis, GM Giron, GM Canetes's, Suro Inay, GM Gaji, and many more, they all opened the doors for us martial artist that only knew of the Japanese, Korean or Chinese arts. Remy was probably the first to really commercialize it to the public, the first huge summer camp and all the seminars, but nonetheless he was not the only one. Rocky P.S before I get a bazillion hateful e-mails I forgot to mention Guru Inosanto to he has used his visibility to help bring light to many different versions of Filipino arts. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Doce Pares' Footwork To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:10:47 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >I suspect because he found it superior. Perhaps similar to why he changed > the > >very linear original system of DP to the curvi-linear system... it worked > >better in real life intersonal encounters (or at least those he > experienced). > > >No one system has the best "everything". > > I have always wanted to ask GM Cocoy about this if I ever get the privilage > of meeting him, how he came about the circular foot work whan Ancion had the > liniar, and I believe Momoy went back to the Liniar in San Migul. I though it > was just becaue Ancing was a single stick fighter. Do you have anymore insite > you could pass along on this Ray?? My understanding is that Gm Cacoy's curvilinear style is more related to the movement of his stick than in his footwork. Beginning at the age of 7 years old he started learning from Momoy. Momoy was "assigned" as his teacher. But being the youngest of the DP group (and of the Canete family) it fell to him to defend DP and the family in the challenges they received. If they got past Cacoy they would try fighting the others in the group. Apparently no one ever got past Cacoy. During his matches he had time to see what worked and what worked even better. This was the experience that brought about changes to what he was taught. Momoy was never happy that Cacoy changed the original style, but Cacoy found that the curvilinear approach was more effective than the more traditional linear style (or at least more effective for him). Comments from others??? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:21:03 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] More rank stuff Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net First I must say I third Mr. Coulture (sp) and Rays remarks on this tile/rank crap. I personally call anyone what ever they want, its no skin of my butt! I personally like to be called Rocky, just plain simple Rocky. I myself call people the eay I see it, Ray likes to be called Ray I can tell by they way he signs his post, Marc is Marc, or Crafty, and so on, I almost always refer to older or senior martial artist as Master, as in Master Anderson, after 30 or 40 years in the martial arts I think he is diserving of it unless he tells me otherwise. I use tiles out of respect NOT because someone requires it. Cacoy, Buot, Presas, and other I refer to as GM's out of respect in their arts means nothing about their personalities just their postion in their arts. Despite our difference's I use GM when talking to Gat, for two reasons, I think that is what he is, and secondly I still don't really know what the hell his name is?? its got like six words, Gat Puno "garimote" Abeat and I think something else, so its just easier for me to call him GM Gat. Danny I who is without a doubt a master in his own right, but does not like the term so he is just plain old Guru I. I guess what I am saying is a title is something used out of respect not something someone forces you to use when addressing them. Belts and ranks just hang on the wall and hold up your pants. Just my 2 cents --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Stickfighter87@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:07:18 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Grand Master Jerson Nene Tortal in Terre Haute IN. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net For those of you that are close to SW Indiana (Terre Haute) to be exact on April 3rd-4th 9a-12p - 1330-1630hrs Masguru P. Gregg Alland of the World Kali Silat Society and Masguru Jerson Tortal Jr. as well as Grand Master Jerson Nene Tortal will all three be doing a seminar at the Wabash Valley sports center 599 S. Tabortown St. Terre Haute IN. Price: $125 both days $75 one day If any questions contact Guru Mike Snow at Mikesnow@kalisilat.com or (812)240-9892 aslo their will be authentic Phillipine Ratan Bastons and Kamagong Training blades both new and authentic sandata will be for sale!!!! Do not miss this opportunity to train and meet w/ GM Jerson Nene Tortal first visit to the Midwest. Reserve your spot for this once in a lifetime event! Cory Ballinger I.M.A.A. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "David Eke" To: Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:18:10 +1000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: terminology Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "First, I think it was David who took my comments about criticisms of the use of the term "Kali" to be responsive to him. I regret I was not clear-- my comments were not aimed at him, rather I was thinking more generically" No, it is a fairly standard rant of mine. None of what you said I took personally. I used PT and Villabrille-Largusa systems as they are the only "Kali" examples I know about. "Second, there were posts about Kali with the "just don't call it the mother art" etc. For the record, we of DBMA never have done so." I don't think anyone was implying that you did. The point was both GM's Gaje and Largusa have made this point in the past. In fact there is a Villabrille-Largusa website that almost quotes Guro I's book word for word. "Third, as for "ownership and hijacking": There is no purity problem presented when a Filipino, e.g. Cacoy Canete, takes a "foreign" system such as judo and blends it into his system- Eskrido. However, when a foreigner, e.g. an American, does so difficult questions are presented. At what point does the result become something which should no longer be called FMA?" No difficult questions. Do I have a problem with anyone Pinoy or otherwise blending foreign systems into their art?, No!!!! Just don't feed me the line about it being the "mother art". As I have stated before, THIS is the problem not the terminology. "..., to a point where he took me in and taght me Balintawak and hooked me up wit hGm Buot" GM Remy's art wasn't just an art but his livelihood. Balintawak is an art that you have to teach one on one. He wouldn't have been able to survive financially if he just used Balintawak as a vehicle. So he developed "Modern Arnis" the merging of aspects of Karate with Arnis. This art could be taught to the masses and accentuated the sportive elements, however, if he thought you worthy, he taught you Balintawak. "How many of this Grandmaster fought to each other? Very few of them fought against each other and everyone saying there arts is the best and claim never lost the fight." Yep, all true. To be fair this is not just an Escrima thing. How many other MA's form "international" bodies with (300 members) have competitions and call the winner a "World Champ" Hype is hype, just move on. I actually feel the same about "terminology". "But remember, all of the stick techniques is really meant for blades. The stick is only used for training purposes for blades. But this is not means that the stick is less effective than the blades or the blades is less effective than stick vice versa. " I don't agree with this one. Piggafetta (Magellan's chronicler) described many of the natives having fire hardened sticks. They used these sticks in combat. In most martial arts there is the use of the stick or staff, the Chinese Rod, the Japanese Jo, Krabi-Krabong, English quarter-staff, etc. Armies need their poor old foot soldiers and the sword was an extremely expensive item which only the wealthy would have. In the case of The Philippines in pre-Spanish times I'm sure there was plenty of guys running around wire fire hardened sticks because they could afford a sword. "In Bailntawak, a system that a fellow REK practitioner use to practice, teaches you until you get to the instuctor level and then encourages you to take up another style (ie:/ jiu-jitsu, wing-chun, etc.) and mix it in with your Balintawak to make you complete." There are numerous "schools" of Balintawak with variations on variations. For myself, I was never taught the above philosophy, however, Jose Go developed Tat Kun Tao Kung Fu which integrates Balintawak's simplicity with a closed door Chinese MA style. Interestingly, drop the sticks and Balintawak's counter to counter looks and feels like Wing-chun. Chicken/pork adobo Ingredients 1 kg pork (can be chops) can be 1/2 chicken + pork 6 cloves garlic 1 cup white vinegar 1 cup water 1 tsp salt 2 bay leaves 1/2 teaspoon ground black pepper oil for frying Preparation Cut pork/chicken into bite sized pieces. Marinate the meat and other incredients (except oil) for at least an hour. Using a large saucepan bring to the boil, then reduce heat and simmer for 40 mins. (or until meat is tender.) Remove meat from pan. Reduce liquid until thick Fry meat in oil for 5 minutes (or until brown) Stir meat back into large saucepan Serve very hot accompanied by white rice. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest