Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:39:07 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #111 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. (no subject) (rob mulligan) 2. RE: anyone know the email of Rich Reynolds of Texas Kali Assoc? (Karen Pence) 3. Re: Sonny Umpad's location (Ray Terry) 4. Empty hand translations (Tom Skoglind) 5. Jet Li's Fight Scene in KOD (Clint Cayson) 6. Balintawak (GatPuno@aol.com) 7. Balintawak Enterpreter (GatPuno@aol.com) 8. Re: Sonny Umpad's location (=?iso-8859-1?q?Moritz=20Sisenop?=) 9. Self Defense (rocky pasiwk) 10. Balintawak (David Eke) 11. Re: Answer for Julian and Self Defense (Johnaleen) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "rob mulligan" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:50:32 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This is in response to the post by Gat Puno Baet about the differing stories, or maybe “histories” of the relationship of PG Mat Marinas and Pananandata-Marinas, to GM Porfirio Lanada and Arnis Lanada.   I had a very pleasant and enlightening conversation with Gat Puno on Monday. I wanted to speak to him personally before I posted this to the digest.   My memory of exact dates may be off, and I didn’t ‘t ask PG Marinas, as this is still, after all these years, a sensitive and hurtful subject to him.   PG Marinas studied Arnis Lanada with Ka Piriong (GM Lanada) for several years in the 1960’s, and was awarded the Expert rating in Arnis Lanada in 1971. He had many years of training previous to that in Pananandata from Ingkong Leon Marcelo and his uncles, starting as a child in 1948. Po also holds black belts in Aikido and Shorin Ryu.   Po moved to New York in the early 1970’s. In 1974 he published “Arnis De Mano” which I believe is the first book on the Filipino martial arts written in English. The cover of the book illustrates Ka Piriong and Po, with Po as the attacker and Ka Piriong as the defender. The illustrations inside also made it absolutely clear who was the teacher and who was the student. It also has Ka Piriong’s name above Po’s, even though Po clearly was the writer. The theory that Po stole anything to write this book is pretty obviously wrong to anyone actually seeing and reading this book.   Throughout the 1970’s and 1980’s Po worked tirelessly to teach, write about, and promote Arnis Lanada, through many many magazine articles, seminars and demonstrations where the recipients were fortunate enough to train with him. Po taught Arnis Lanada to such people as PG Danny Paulo, Guro/Sifu Spencer Gee and Professor Vee. I don’t think anyone has any doubts about their integrity.   Po is human though. Sometimes he fails to see the dark sides of people, and unfortunately because of this, placed his trust the wrong people at times.   This was so in the 1980’s when he had two senior students, both talented arnisadors who had more self-serving desires than they let on. I will not name them here because they know who they are.   These students somehow felt that they were the rightful inheritors of the art. They felt that they had the right to filter who did and who did not deserve Po’s attention and instruction. I know this because I was one of those students on the bad end of that deal when I was a relative beginner in the martial arts, and a true beginner in Filipino martial arts. It was seen that I was getting special attention from Po, and that just wasn’t going to happen. The general methodof intimidation  used was to slyly slip in mental and verbal abuse, out of earshot of Po, and not so slyly slip in especially and unnecessarily harsh hits during sparring and freefighting. This insured that sparring sessions were not learning sessions, but punishment sessions for those who were among the undesirable. This was the days before armor and helmets, only sticks to bone and skin, so a hit was a real hit, and I paid my dues in spades. Many others suffered the same treatment under these fellows. Most gave up and left the art. I guess I was just a little more determined. Learning arnis from Mat Marinas was something I wanted with all my heart, and no one was going to stop me.   In 1987 (if memory serves me), Po, unfortunately still not seeing through these two students, took them as his guests to the Philippines, to stay with his family, Po’s family, and to train with GM Lanada. While there, they in turn underhandedly convinced GM Lanada that for a chance to visit the United States, he would name them as his representatives in the U.S., and give them titles such as “Rajah” or “Datu” or something to that effect. Sorry, but my memory fades as to the exact titles. So, here we have a great kindness, that is, treating these students as family, turned around to a backstabbing, and a usurping of an art that Mat Marinas had been committed to for so many years, always acknowledging GM Lanada, always taught and promoted with good will. Sometime later, maybe a year, GM Lanada came to the U.S. and was brought to Flushing Meadows Park, where we trained. He and Po stepped away from the group and had a long conversation. Po returned alone  to the group, without any discussion about what they talked about, and nothing more was ever said. He never spoke about GM Lanada or those students by name again. I was there that day. That’s what I saw.   Po then, only after this “sampalin”, this slap in the face, chose to teach his inherited art, albeit influenced by the other arts he studied: “Pananandata-Marinas”. His background as a professor of chemical engineering has always led him to be inquisitive and analytical.  His quote is: “If it can’t be worked out mathematically. It doesn’t exist”. He never fails to grow in his scope of exploration and understanding and always looks to expand his art. His hard won mastery of Filipino weapons, like the dikin, tabak-toyuk, lilik, latiko, tungkod, lubid, and numerous others proves his desire to always learn, learn, learn. His in depth knowledge and skill with blowguns earned him chairmanship of the “International Sport Blowgun Association”. His interest in knife throwing has influenced him to throw a total exceeding 1,250,000 (that’s one MILLION two hundred and fifty thousand) throws; write a book on it the subject, and become a well-respected expert in the field.   Pananandata-Marinas is his art. He hasn’t had the need to steal from anyone, and has always acknowledged his teachers.   One of the greatest lessons he ever taught me was this, he said: “You can teach a chimp to swing a stick, you can’t teach a chimp to be a gentleman.” I carry that thought with me always, and hope to be considered a gentleman, in my teaching, and in my everyday life.   If anyone cares to contest this account, feel free, it is after all my personal recollection. There may be a few inaccuracies in exact dates, but again, it was from memory. The point is, I was there, I knew the people involved, and I saw what I saw, and no one can change what I saw.   Guro Rob Mulligan   P.S.: Gat Puno Baet, thanks again for the time, and I’ll work on becoming a good “taga Neuva Ecija” (excuse my poor Tagalog).                                                     ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Karen Pence" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] anyone know the email of Rich Reynolds of Texas Kali Assoc? Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:26:48 -0600 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Leslie Buck can be found at the Center of Martial Arts in Austin Texas but not sure what his email is -----Original Message----- From: Leo Salinel [mailto:viceleo96@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 11:12 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] anyone know the email of Rich Reynolds of Texas Kali Assoc? Hi guys, I need to email the webmaster of the Texas Kali Association, Rich Reynolds. Does anyone know his email address or that of Mandatus Leslie Buck? Any help or info would be very much appreciated. Thank you very much and more power to you all! ===== Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Sonny Umpad's location To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:30:05 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > In which country is Sonny Umpad residing? USA. As I recall he used to live in Alameda, California. I assume he is still in the same area. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Tom Skoglind" To: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:45:39 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Empty hand translations Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have very little knowledge about Balintawak, but I found the following statement regarding empty hand translations in the Balintawak thread interesting: >>....So, if someone does not see the translation then it is not there.... On a cloudy evening, I can not see the stars, but I am fairly certain they are still there. Mangisursuro Inay used to say "When I show you the weapon [techniques], the empty hand is a gift." It is always there, one simply needs to explore their art to discover its vast content. Just my respectful .02. Tom Skoglind IFE Katiwala Guro www.inayaneskrima.com skoglind@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Federation of Eskrima --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:47:04 -0500 From: "Clint Cayson" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Jet Li's Fight Scene in KOD Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I hope this is not a redundant question. I recently watched (again the 5 times) Jet Li's "kiss of death" movie. I was wondering if that scene with other practitioners fighting against Jet Li was a Presas or Marpio forms? And who was his fight choreographer of that scene? I heard that Corey Yuen (the director) studied Presas style but I'm not sure if this is true or not. Because my daughter love that movie particularly that scene in the police precinct and she asked me what kind of style. I got no answer to her question. Thanks. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:10:15 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Balintawak Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:26:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Guro Abon, > > It is in the person not the art for completeness. > > Agree 100% no much to say, Thanks Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA E-mail: gatpuno@aol.com Website: garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:20:32 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Balintawak Enterpreter Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:26:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Guru Abon, > > You must keep in mind that their are many styles of Balintawak, in Gm Buots, > who even GM Tobaoda admits is probably the most original, to Gm Bacon in the > earlier years, of course GM Buot left in 1974 to come to the U.S, so GM > Bacon > may have changed some things. But in the Balintawak that GM Buot teaches, > we Rocky, I will keep that in my minds, good points, I forget that all of them has different "Balintawak" enterpreters. Thank yoo, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA E-mail: gatpuno@aol.com Website: garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:45:47 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Moritz=20Sisenop?= Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Sonny Umpad's location To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > As I recall he used to live in Alameda, California. > I assume he is still > in the same area. Thank you very much. __________________________________________________________________ Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de Mit Yahoo! Suche finden Sie alles: http://suche.yahoo.de --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "rocky pasiwk" To: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:47:31 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Self Defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Juilian, its good that you don't disagree with me, cause I am the all knowing oracle of wisdom, just ask me :-) I only mis-spell and slaughter the English language to give hope to people like Crafty, Ray, and a few others:-) Anyway Police officers, quite often give advise or even work shops in various cities around the U.S on self defense, yet a vast majority of them have never been in a street fight, before in their life, and most of them have very poor training/fighting skill ( I mean no dis-respect, just making a point) however because they, see up close the end result of so many disputes, mugging, rapes and what not, and all of the intelligence gathering over the years the system has put together, they can come up with some very good advise for self defense. Remember the first and foremost technique in self defense is not to get into a situation. I have had my fair share of street fights, some how unlike so many other here in the states, who claim to have been in gang fights and shoot outs and what not but never landed in jail, I have!! I have had more than one run in with the law when I was younger and got into fights, where these other people live where they get into shoot outs and stabbings and what not, but never see any police involvement I don't no. At any rate, having done stuff I don't want my son doing when I was a kid, I might have a little edge on the guy down the street teaching, self defense, but basic self defense is mostly common sense. Now if your working the gang squad in S.E Detroit, that's a little different, if you are Joe citizen in my neighborhood, I recommend, a level headed approach to self defense, and a good gun course. Being Joe commando, is nice on a resume, but the average guy is not going to get that involved. And for God sake don't get involved in the statistics mumbojumbo mambeejambee crap!!!!!!! Once again keep it basic and simple and go from their if you want to get deeper the door is already open. People love to throw statistics around to get students and impress others, I see this all the time, its the same when learning actual techniques, do you really have to tell someone look if your attacker is in quadrant 624-11, throwing a right cross that is bi secting your interior, upper quadrant, at the center line at 24.7 deg., you need to bi-sect it with an inverted forward perry straight across his interior left descending unilateral perimeter, just below his forearm, striking the upper epiglottis meridian.......... it may make that person sound smart and some people get all warm and fuzzy because they think they are dealing with Bruce Lee reincarnated. When in reality all you had to do was say, block with your right and smash him with your left simple and effective. My father use to say there are only to zones in fighting one in which your opponent can hit you and one in which your opponent can't. Of course he use to say only atheist can be T.V evangelist, and if it weren't for liquor there would be a lot less people in the world, seems he always said that when looking at me hhhhmmmm! Anyways another way to look at it is some tuff guys are stupid and can't teach, so what good is that, then there are people like Tank Abott tough as hell but do you want to learn from them!! Any ways thats just my take on slef defense. Rocky From the book of Rock " Kick, punch, claw, chew,gouge and pull hair, all the basics for self defense or dating Mike Tyson" --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "David Eke" To: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:14:34 +1000 Subject: [Eskrima] Balintawak Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >David Eke wrote: > "In Bailntawak, a system that a fellow REK practitioner use to practice, > teaches you until you get to the instuctor level and then encourages you to > take up another style (ie:/ jiu-jitsu, wing-chun, etc.) and mix it in with > your Balintawak to make you complete." > Actually I didn't write this, I was responding to a post by someone else. What's below is mine. > There are numerous "schools" of Balintawak with variations on variations. > For myself, I was never taught the above philosophy, however, Jose Go > developed Tat Kun Tao Kung Fu which integrates Balintawak's simplicity with > a closed door Chinese MA style. Interestingly, drop the sticks and > Balintawak's counter to counter looks and feels like Wing-chun. If you read the post CAREFULLY I'm actually disagreeing with the idea that Balintawak needs other arts to make it complete. Balintawak is a stick based art. The application of empty hand techniques, knife or sword is dependant on how well the user UNDERSTANDS what they are doing. This sort of goes back to the thread of "FLOW". Can you translate your knowledge and flow from stick, empty hand, knife...etc? Good instructors in any style can do this. Tat kun tao does not fill a void in Balintawak training only complements it. Talking about complements, I just like to congratulate Gat on his command of the nuances of the use of sarcasm. Quite clever for someone with English as a second language. :-) Bobby T and Henry Jayme were taught the grouped version of Balintawak by GM Velez. Each of these guys trained with other instructors as well, however their base style is Velez. I met Bobby when he was only a "Master" in Australia, he has tried to change the basic syllabus of Balintawak to make it easier to teach groups. Henry has a website www.visayanmartialarts.com if anyone is interested in his lineage. He's a great guy and instructor (I may be biased as he's the Godfather of my son) --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Johnaleen" To: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:22:00 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Answer for Julian and Self Defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Julian wrote: "One of his guest writers states that it is not possible for people without genuine experience to teach self-defense. Also that doing so is in fact dangerous for the students. I neither agree nor disagree. What do you lot think?" ********* When it comes to self defense classes, techniques, or saving your butt on the streets " ( that is what self defense is, not martial arts, there is a huge difference) Furthermore, before giving you my answers, i have not read this article that your referring too, nor do i have a clear picture of what this person was saying and exactly what the context was. However, we have this huge fallacy on a global level that " martial arts, any kind of martial arts means your learning self defense. thats just rubbish... and its getting people killed wile places like 18 month blackbelt tkd schools rake in the cash at the expense of the populations safety. So do you have to have real life save your butt on the streets experiences to teach self defense properly? no not really, however the more important factors that make you a good teacher in self defense are as follows: 1) The teacher you wile learning how to teach sda, and what her or his experiences are from years and years of teaching. 2) The overall self defense and awareness corse outline they are teaching ( also where it came from, who developed it and how it relates to instance of reality based violence in today's society) 3) Who they are teaching 4) the kind of teacher they are now 5) what type of training they did to learn how to teach self defense, and what long term reality based martial arts they have trained in if any. ( this will have a huge effect on the type of teacher they may turn out to be and where some of there experience may come from if they are training long term in a long term street ready reality based art. i state this because if its a core reality based art they will train full contact more in turn learning fully about there own body's as well as others in a fight) 6) how much experience they have with women, children and the handicap as co students and students under them, and what specialized skills they may have before teaching this main clientele. Furthermore, because most teachers in Self-Defense and Martial arts are men, If your a man who is of average build or larger the way your body works ( body mechanics 101) is hugely different then a woman's, childs, handicapped person or the smaller man. These factors have to be taken into account first and something that the teacher has to have learned about before they teach the average person who needs to learn self defense. Just because it will work for you the dude against another dude is not the same if your a women, child or someone with a handicap. And as far as real life safe your butt experience just because your a dude and you saved yourself against another dude, does not mean its going to work for anyone other then a you the dude that survived it. Furthermore, this is one of the main reasons i will not allow women, children or handicap people in my classes to train just with other women or others of there same size. Because until you really face what your going to face out there your not going to fully know for sure its going to even partly work for sure because everyones body ( and limitations if any) are different. add adrenaline, drugs, anger and intent to the equation on the streets and your a women or in a wheel chair? again the reality's are hugely different for the average person who is learning core self defense compared to some dude that saved his butt on the streets against another man. Yes if you save your ass on the streets in a realty based situation it may make you a better presenter and teacher because you believe in your techniques more and you have reason to believe they work, and you have some good storys to tell. however you dont have to survive death to learn how to teach how to survive it if your training wile learning it is appropriately realistic and it covers all the issues the average person who needs to take sda is trained for. If you want to know what a Self-Defense corse should cover and what the appropriate type of outline should look like: Go here: http://www.sdfwmag.com/features/view.asp?article=71&issue=Win03 this article was featured in the last issue of blackbelt magazines " self defense for women' this link is to there on line version of it. regardless of gender, sex, age or physical limitations, this outline is appropriate for any core self defense programs. Note the word self-defense, i am not talking martial arts. FINAL NOTE: when you read the above article, i am not responsible for the lousy pictures that go with this article and i was promised at the time they would not use pictures without working with me on them, however they did as they did and i dont indorse the pictures that went with this article. Ms J..... Ms Johnaleen Castro Lifetime Student/CEO FATE www.fate-organization.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest