Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 05:39:10 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #112 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. LaCoste and Silat (steve kohn) 2. Not really there (rich parsons) 3. Re: the "art" of self-defense (Kes41355@aol.com) 4. Re: Suro Inay and empty hand (Kes41355@aol.com) 5. Self-defense teaching (Ray Terry) 6. Complete Art (Al Sardinas) 7. Mat Marinas (Stephen Lamade) 8. Re: Complete Art (Ray Terry) 9. Pananadata/Balintawak (GatPuno@aol.com) 10. Re: Master Dulay and Master Vasquez (ABANICO) 11. re self defence and the process (Patrick Davies) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "steve kohn" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:31:58 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] LaCoste and Silat Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, I was taught that LaCoste had a great deal of Kuntao Silat (from the Southern Phillipines) integrated into his art. It was most evident in the empty-hand entries he used. He tended to not use full lever positions for takedowns so as to create a greater distance beteween himself and the opponents weapon hand. At least thats how I understood it at the time I was being taught his art. Hope that helps. -Steve Kohn >From: "Mike Casto" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] LaCoste and Silat? >Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:48:45 -0500 > >I'ver heard Guro Dan say many times at seminars that Lacoste had a wide >base >of training which included, among other things, Silat - and, if memory >serves, it was specifically of the Southern Philippines variety. > >Mike > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Moritz Sisenop" >To: >Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 10:09 AM >Subject: [Eskrima] LaCoste and Silat? > > > > I recently watched volume 6 of Terry Gibson's > > Maphilindo Silat series in which he stated that > > LaCoste just started to train Silat with the hands > > closed (fists) instead of open hands. > > I've never heard before that LaCoste trained in Silat. > > Could anyone please clarify this? > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > > Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de > > Mit Yahoo! Suche finden Sie alles: http://suche.yahoo.de > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima _________________________________________________________________ Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:39:51 -0800 (PST) From: rich parsons To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Not really there Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Tom, I agree the stars are really there. I also agree that the world is round. Yet, there were generations of people who would not believe it. And therefore the world was not round for them. They refused to see it. So to them it was not there. I did not mean disrespect, nor to try to be confusing. Best Regards Rich -- __--__-- Message: 4 From: "Tom Skoglind" To: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:45:39 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Empty hand translations Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have very little knowledge about Balintawak, but I found the following statement regarding empty hand translations in the Balintawak thread interesting: >>....So, if someone does not see the translation then it is not there.... On a cloudy evening, I can not see the stars, but I am fairly certain they are still there. Mangisursuro Inay used to say "When I show you the weapon [techniques], the empty hand is a gift." It is always there, one simply needs to explore their art to discover its vast content. Just my respectful .02. Tom Skoglind IFE Katiwala Guro www.inayaneskrima.com skoglind@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Federation of Eskrima -- __--__-- __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:24:29 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: the "art" of self-defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/16/04 3:26:25 PM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > One of his guest writers states that it is not possible for people without > genuine experience to teach self-defence. Also that doing so is in fact > dangerous for the students. I neither agree nor disagree. What do you lot > think? > Hi all, I've got to agree 100% with this statement...you cannot teach what you don't know. Supposition, and a belief that real fighting can be theorized, are dangerous thinking patterns, both to the teacher and to their student(s). A teacher does his student(s) a grave disservice if he proposes to teach something he has never experienced. In real fights, the atmosphere changes completely, and things we train in so hard in the school setting, we find go right out the window. For example, trapping in all it's glory is a foolhardy thing to attempt in the street, where it all comes down to simplicity, and as my teacher says, the fight goes to the person who "gets there firstest with the mostest." Training a well-placed and well-timed punch to the point of instinct will keep you alive far longer than drawn out maneuvers that are dependent upon your opponent's response to your tactics ("when you engage and trap, and he responds this way, you do this"). I've had to defend myself on a regular basis, and I can tell you with no hesitation that the simplest stuff that is battle tested is what is going to work. Kim --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:35:07 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Suro Inay and empty hand Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/16/04 6:33:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > On a cloudy evening, I can not see the stars, but I am fairly certain they > are > still there. Mangisursuro Inay used to say "When I show you the weapon > [techniques], the empty hand is a gift." It is always there, one simply > needs > to explore their art to discover its vast content. Just my respectful .02. > Hi Tom, I just had to write and say thank you for a most pleasing memory. The last time I saw Mike Inay he told us that very thing, about the empty hand methodology of his art being a gift to us that we would discover after learning the stick and blade aspects of Inayan Eskrima. When I read your post, I immediately flashed back 15 or so years to a seminar Mike taught at Ben Berry's place here in Fort Wayne. I got to spend quite a lot of time with Mike that day, both in a seminar setting, and a lot of quality time one-on-one with him just sitting around talking, getting to know each other. He was truly one of a kind, and is greatly missed. Kim Satterfield --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:13:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Self-defense teaching Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > One of his guest writers states that it is not possible for people without > genuine experience to teach self-defense. Also that doing so is in fact > dangerous for the students. I neither agree nor disagree. What do you lot > think? I guess that depends on what exactly genuine experience means. As Gm Cacoy recounts about the Saavedras, early members and leaders of Doce Pares... The best fighter among them could not teach very well. The best teacher among them could not fight very well. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Al Sardinas" To: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:29:22 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Complete Art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bart Hubbard you wrote "But I think that ultimately there is no such thing as a "complete" art. What art can recognize , strategize, address, and then train for every possible contingency? It seems a bit of an overreach to claim that your art is "complete" in that sense....... How does a proponent of a self-defined "complete" art explain the existence of techniques and strategies that exist in other arts, but not their own?" I started my journey to martial art enlightenment in 1968. In 1991 I discovered a "complete" art - Garimot and recognized that with this system I will be a student for ther rest of my life. In simple terms a complete art for me encompasses weapons, empty-hand, kicking, wrestling, internal arts, etc. - Garimot is complete. Regarding the existence of techniques and strategies that exist in other arts and not in Garimot, the answer is imple - concepts. Bart if you feel that your journey is over and you have not found a "complete" art then that is fine. But maybe if you keep on walking you will find it. If you personally want to experience the art of Garimot via a seminar, class, sparring or some other avenue then you are more than welcome to. Respectfully, Al Sardinas A Student Of Garimot System Of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 02:14:11 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Mat Marinas Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net For what it's worth: I've had the pleasure of recently training with Rob Mulligan on a couple of occasions and have had several discussions with him on the phone and via email about the respective characteristics of our arts and of Filipino martial arts in general. He was also exceptionally generous about offering an image for my acupuncture brochure (which will be published as soon as I have established a location for my clinic). I am describing the extent of my relationship with Rob to put the following comments into context; I wish to add that my personal experience of Pananandata is limited to my brief training with Rob, and that we have never discussed the Marinas-Lanada connection. It's worth noting, therefore, that: 1. MANY years before meeting Rob I had a conversation with someone who had studied with Mat Marinas sometime in the 1970-s - 1980's. This individual was quite clear on the point that a student of GM Marinas had somehow gone behind his back and poisoned his relationship with GM Lanada. Granted: this is hearsay - but it's interesting to have the same story come up many years apart. 2. The histories of both Pananandata and Lanada Arnis are described in some detail in Mark Wiley's "Filipino Fighting Arts," which I had read before meeting Rob this year. A careful reading between the lines established (in my mind at least) that Mat Marinas had taken pains to speak and act respectfully towards his former teacher. *** Rocky wrote: "I am looking for this desert that Irwin Balarta's mother use to make it was kind of a jello, only golden brown and tasted like coconut, man that stuff is awesome, my fat butt probably doesn't need it but man I would love to learn hoe to make it." This sounds like coconut flan - or it could be coconut milk simmered in a closed container for a very long time. Best, Steve Lamade _________________________________________________________________ Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage. Multiple plans available. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Complete Art To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 18:04:09 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I started my journey to martial art enlightenment in 1968. In 1991 I > discovered a "complete" art - Garimot and recognized that with this system I > will be a student for ther rest of my life. In simple terms a complete art > for me encompasses weapons, empty-hand, kicking, wrestling, internal arts, > etc. - Garimot is complete. Regarding the existence of techniques and > strategies that exist in other arts and not in Garimot, the answer is > imple - concepts. A problem, of course, with the "complete" art approach is that it will be so vast that one would never be able to attain any significant level of expertise in even a subset of its elements. Concepts are great, but will concepts keep you from being submitted by a hooker? (No, not that kind of hooker, Rocky. :) Just for fun I have pulled together an art called "We Have That, Too"(TM). The list is long, so anything you can think of is in this art. My journey also started c1968. During that time I've experienced a VERY wide variety of arts, concepts, strategies, etc. But the problem is again, how does one continue to practice kicking, empty hands/elbows, standup grappling, ground grappling, weapons (ALL types), etc, etc (see "We Have That, Too" (TM)) and be able to roll with a BJJer, flow with an eskrimador, kick with a muay thai or TKDer, stay inside with a wing chun-er, grapple with a hapkido-er, etc. It is easy to be a jack of all, but difficult to be a master of even one. Ready to be assaulted and insulted... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:55:29 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Pananadata/Balintawak Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rob, Good and very interesting post. I cant ask for more. Thank you clarification. David Eke, Sorry for mistaken thought you worte that post, I just wanted to point it out the post. To me as Filipino Martial Artist, I would say all FMA weapon movement has a equal or sometime is more application than that the stick itself. That if we are talking the same Filipino Martial Arts. Since I am not a practitioner of the Balintawak, I just want to point it the out the sense of mistakenly missing to the arts. Kuya Bobby Taboada its seems to me a very good boxer type of application, and strong lock control to his version. Just wahta I have seen him doing to numerous time that we give Seminar together in Florida. Salamat/thanks, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA www.garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:06:29 +0100 From: abanico-video-knuettel@t-online.de (ABANICO) Organization: ABANICO GmbH & Co KG To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Master Dulay and Master Vasquez Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From: "Alex Ercia" > > Hi Alex, >I stand corrected in sir Bambit's rank. Sorry mistake. > No problem >But he is also one of >the best senior instructors of ERnesto Presas from the mid 80's to around >1994. He was my senior instructor including Sir Cristino Vasquez, Tiger >Dave, and the rest of the crew. > You are absolutely correct there. >I used to see you at our old Gym in Quiapo. When you used to train with GM Ernesto. > Yes, that was in 1983 and in 1986. You were there too? Wow, that is really long ago. > You had a falling out with him just like the others. I was also one of them. But eventually I got back with GM >Ernesto. > I don´t want to start a discussion about the different fallouts of highly qualified Masters wirth Ernesto, but there are many. >It was our last group of Instructors(Samuel Dulay, Cris Vasquez, >Mark Santos,Etc) that had a falling out because of some silly rumor. > Let us leave the past in the past. >Anyways, I still regard these gentlemen a big contribution to the Modern >Arnis or FMA of the Philippines. I visit Master Vasquez everytime I go home. >Both Sir Bambit and Sir Cristi is helping out the MARPPIO organization too. >Coming from Sir Cristi. It's their own contribution to the legacy of the >great Prof. But mind you, their movements are more influenced by GM ERnesto. >They helped GM Ernesto develop what is now called Kombatan Arnis. Without >their sacrifice, skill and knowledge of the FMA Kombatan will not be what it >is. I wish they would get more credit for it. They do it for the arts. >Hopefuly by what you are doing they will slowly get their fair share of >credit. More power to you Dieter. Take care. > You are absolutely correct there. They were some of the highest Masters under Ernesto and they do deserve full respect for ther achievements. All I wanted to point out, that the are not connected to Ernesto any more for many years. As of today, both are very actice in the IMAF - Philippines (Internatinal Modern Arnis Federation- Philippines), which is by far the biggest and most active Modern Arnis Association in the Philippines. Chrstino Vasquez, who holds Laka Siyam (9th Dan) for Ernesto AND Remy Presas, is also active in MARPPIO too due to the fact, that he is first cousin of the Presas brothers and there for he has of course tight family bounds to the children of the late Professor Remy Presas, who now run MARPPIO. But in the Philippines MARPPIO is not big at all. Bambit Dulay was the training partner of GM Remy Presas, on his trips back to the Philippines in the 1990ies and he instructed him, how to further spread and distribute Modern Arnis in the Philippines. Even though he has a strong foundation in Ernestos System, he has all the techniques and concepts from GM Remy Presas too, what makes him an extremly highly qualified Modern Arnis Master, who has also a lot of knowledge in other FMA styles. He recently received Lakan Pito, 7th Dan from the IMAF-Philippines and the board of senior Modern Arnis Masters in the Philippines. More information about the IMAP-Philippines and their activities ther are soon to come. Regards from Germany Dieter Knüttel --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:41:01 -0000 From: "Patrick Davies" To: "eskrima digest" Subject: [Eskrima] re self defence and the process Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Message: 6 From: julian.gilmour@barclays.co.uk One of his guest writers states that it is not possible for people without genuine experience to teach self-defence. Also that doing so is in fact dangerous for the students. I neither agree nor disagree. What do you lot think? Message: 9 From: "rocky pasiwk" Anyway Police officers, quite often give advise or even work shops in various cities around the U.S on self defense, yet a vast majority of them have never been in a street fight, before in their life, ..................... ................. Anyways another way to look at it is some tuff guys are stupid and can't teach, so what good is that, then there are people like Tank Abott tough as hell but do you want to learn from them!! From: "Johnaleen" ********* So do you have to have real life save your butt on the streets experiences to teach self defense properly? no not really, however the more important factors that make you a good teacher in self defense are as follows: Good question and good points returned. If you have no personal experience of situations then you are however giving authority to your sources. I personally have seen techniques taught that I have been unable to make work but others claim that they had used them. The techniques were maybe not wrong and were maybe suitable for a time and a place and only by training to a certain method can you find out without having that 'real time'. Its important, more than anything, to be able to put points into context. Without any disrespect to Geoff Thompson - in fact the greatest respect - you have to look at where he was looking from when such comments were made. Geoff was surrounded by what is commonly referred to (a phrase I don't like btw) traditional martial arts. He has done a lot to pulling them out of the dead drill type scenario that many martial arts fall into. I was there when he saw Rick Young demonstrate real time trapping which Geoff had critisised and I have heard of his encounters with other martial artists like McFann who he credits in his books. If a Rick Young or McFann tell me that I want to do this or that in order to survive a situation then I will happily give them the authority and accept their experience because I know that they do not say things lightly. However, I would not presume that this will work for me without creating the attributes that are required to go along with that moment. So a proper training regime that allows the student to learn to deal with all the factors that go along with real life situations are necessary. Personal experience helps the instructor no doubt, but the qualities of an instructor don't only develop from that experience. Not everyone can teach and not everyone is made to fight etc Ive been cut in a brawl by a bottle. I can tell you all about it and I don't expect you to have to cut yourself in order to understand that experience, but one things for sure, you'll know when taking the class that when I address the situation and refer to personal experience that I am giving you well founded research. I took a shoot class last week and I know the instructor has real fight experience and so I can trust the techniques have value. However it doesn't mean that it will work for me unless I train them in a manner that gives me the instinct that is required for real time. The process is the important bit not the product. That's where people make the mistake. Pat Davies --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest