Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:24:04 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #113 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Self-defence teaching (Young Forest) 2. Difficult to Master one arts (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. Re: the "art" of self-defense (Marc Macyoung) 4. Re: Re: Complete Art (al sardinas) 5. Re: Self Defense (Todd Ellner) 6. re:complete art (gordon walker) 7. Re: RE: Self-defence teaching (Anthony C) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Young Forest" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:52:59 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Self-defence teaching Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry wrote: >As Gm Cacoy recounts about the Saavedras, early members and leaders >of Doce Pares... The best fighter among them could not teach very well. >The best teacher among them could not fight very well. Couldn't agree more. Teaching ability is a skill, and being a fighter has no effect whatsoever on that skill. Lucky are those who learn under one who is a great fighter and a great teacher. And also from Ray Terry: >Just for fun I have pulled together an art called "We Have That, Too"(TM). >The list is long, so anything you can think of is in this art. My journey >also started c1968. During that time I've experienced a VERY wide variety >of arts, concepts, strategies, etc. But the problem is again, how does one >continue to practice kicking, empty hands/elbows, standup grappling, ground >grappling, weapons (ALL types), etc, etc (see "We Have That, Too" (TM)) and >be able to roll with a BJJer, flow with an eskrimador, kick with a muay >thai >or TKDer, stay inside with a wing chun-er, grapple with a hapkido-er, etc. Ahhh... the old joke - how many martial artists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Four - one to screw it in and three to say "we have that technique too, but we do it a little differently." Badger Jones Siling Labuyo Arnis _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfeeŽ Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:03:24 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Difficult to Master one arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > It is easy to be a jack of all, but difficult to be a master of even one. > > Ready to be assaulted and insulted... :) > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > > I guess you speaking your brain on this one Ray. I agrree with you, it is difficult to be a master of even one. Jack of all trade is what they called to those people that claim that they have it but they cant full it out when they were asked for it to show, or the most time that they need them to be used. Mastery cannot be measured, not even the most expert of any type of martial arts. The only thing we can do is teach awareness, to be sensitive on every situation, not to become to comfortable, mistakes can easily occured when we become over comfident to ourselves. There is no Champion that remain Champion forever, one way or another someone out there will be better than you, and time will come. But we can avoid being a victim of one suspect, or we can be a suspect to one victim. But as Teacher we have the duty to reamind our student if you choose to teach, we should be taching awaredness of this real meaning of the Martial Arts. Martial arts is art of conflict, without conflict there is no fighting, if there is no fighting there is no Martial arts (art of defense). Martial Art without fighting is not art of fighting at all its not even art war which means martial. If every instructor of martial arts saying master this techniques and dont worry, dont worry that techniques is already proven, you dont need to prove yourself anymore, probably that the master of all master I could call. He should be a preacher of religion. He can preached whatever he believed, like saying to his student just follow me and you will be save like Jesus said. Its easy to say our arts is ''Complete" but the hardest is to show its completeness of it. Like the old saying "Walk the walk and talk the talk". I know many fighter and practitioner, wanted to keep their training to maximum, not only for competition but for real situation. This is done not only for exercise, this should be done for assimilating the techniques and movement to a complicated way which is sparring, sparring and sometimes not aoidable real life and death situation. Note: sparring with good practioner and not "chicken" practitioner. You are not only testing the completeness of your arts, you also testing your whole you as a fighter or artist.Do not sparred only your own groups, find another group of MA that not compliance to your attack, then you will see and find out if your cant or you can full it out yourself to the safe zone. Like the training, my experiece in Philippine army Bootcamps, POW rescue assimilation training, we have to cross the border to the safe zone "tht is hard" but again is harder if for real situation. We are not affraid to see that our arts is not the perfect arts, becaused there no perfect arts out there. We strives to show to every practitioner must be aware that every attacks has defense and every single defense has counter defense and on and on and on. From weapon to empty hand, standing to the grounds, be aware also that we are not assuming that no better than us, we are hoping to keep us learning from every student and masters of MA that we can keep us believed that we are forever students. Every fight is a testing and every testing reminds us to study. I repeat my self, there none of my words claiming that we are better than anybody, we also believed that we have the "complete" understanding of Martial arts, but we never claim that we all mastered everything. Provably when I died that the time, ican claim the I mastered everything and found the completeness of life. Till then I am still a believer of no ending learning process. I am still open to all the practitioner that seek the truth, about fighting. If you play with fire guarantee, you will get burn, if you play the water you will get wet, if you play with knife chances are, you will get cut. If you play with us, I will assured you will learn and learned it fast. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA www.garimot.com PS. "Ang Tulay ay ginawa para tulayan hindi para lakaran lamang" (The bridge was made to reach the other side not only to walk on) by:GM Felipe "Garimot" Baet --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:31:52 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: the "art" of self-defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima]> > One of his guest writers states that it is not possible for people without > > genuine experience to teach self-defence. Also that doing so is in fact > > dangerous for the students. I neither agree nor disagree. What do you lot > > think? Then Kim said > I've got to agree 100% with this statement...you cannot teach what you don't > know. Supposition, and a belief that real fighting can be theorized, are > dangerous thinking patterns, both to the teacher and to their student(s). A > teacher does his student(s) a grave disservice if he proposes to teach something he > has never experienced. I'm going to have to throw a couple of major caveats onto that point. Caveats that when included, then yes, it can be done (but under specific conditions) In general, I agree with the contention that it's a bad idea for someone who hasn't been there to teach others how to make it through violence. I have met a lot of people out there who claim to teach "self-defense" that are like virgins claiming that they can teach you all about sex because they've watched porno movies. The only people who are impressed with this so-called wisdom are other virgins. Unfortunately, this is extremely common. And if it weren't for the Jonestownesque possibility of such a person's followers getting hurt, it would be funny. Realize that as I write this, what weighs heavy is that a kid my wife and I know got stabbed. The kid is a a black belt in TKD from a school that my wife was affiliated with. A school that my wife had long been after to change their approach to "Self-defense" because it was not only unrealistic but dangerous to the students. Their steadfast refusal to accept the fact that they were full of BS when it came to how violence really happens is what lead to my wife ending her affilation with the school. Here is a result of that refusal http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595048733,00.html Now prior to this incident this kid was absolutely sure that he had been trained by the school's "grandmaster" how to handle a knife attack. What was being taught unfortunately really resembled Jim Carey's Knife/Karate sketch from Living Color. The master had also approached me several times to teach -- for free-- my knife class. I'd given him some help, but this school had other problems. In addition, the general attitude of the students was one of both ignorance and arrogance about how competent they were. They KNEW they could take care of themselves because they knew this modified TKD form. And quite frankly this kid has the same attitude. Now the real scary part, having done everything wrong (in my book al least) and getting stabbed, this kid told everyone that his martial arts had saved him. No kid the fact that the guy ran after stabbing you is what saved you. What's more the school's spinmeisters are now running around saying "See? See? Using our ultimate martial art he only got stabbed three times when facing a guy with a knife! See how good we are?" Honestly this makes me tremble in disgust because this school was aptly described as "Pirates" not to long ago. They'll steal anything they can get their hands on, teach it wrong and then claim that it was in their system for generations. Giving neither credit for their source or going back to that source to see if they have it right. Putting it bluntly. You can't teach self-defense if you don't know the difference between fighting and self-defense. You can't teach self-defense is you don't know the difference between martial arts and self-defense. You definately can't teach self-defense if your only source of information about so-called "self-defense" is the martial arts. And there is no way in hell that a martial arts pirate can teach self-defense...because like that TKD school, they'll only steal enough to make themselves look good...not to understand what it really means. Now this brings us back to the caveat that I was talking about. Someone who has not seen the elephant CAN teach self-defense on the stipulation that he/she does massive amounts and CONSTANT research from countless different sources. By this I don't just mean martial arts sources or other agenda driven groups, I mean being a sponge and getting input from professionals in all kinds of fields. That means from lawyers, streetfighters, martial artists, psychologists, criminologist, cops, prison guards, firearm instructors, veterans, tough guys, sissies, men, women., doctors and lawyers and indian chiefs. ..EVERYBODY. Now this is seriously different than being a pirate, because simply stated this means work. It also means not stopping where you think you have the "answer" that makes you look good. It is hard core and ongoing research into everything...including subjects that can blow your pet theories out of the water. Then, and this is where pirates and most MA instructors fail, after you have developed a system, subject it to peer review. By this I don't mean going to your students and asking "what do you think?" I mean "Defend your Thesis" like a Ph.D candidate in front of a board of Ph.Ds Take your program back to the people you drew information from and say "What am I missing? What did I get wrong? Where are the holes?" Yes, boys and girls, I am saying offer yourself up as an intellectual chew toy to experts in those fields. And when someone who is qualified to say so says "It wouldn't work" then LISTEN! When cops, prosecuting attorneys and defense lawyers all look at a gloriously cool move and say "bad idea" then it is a bad idea...no matter how much pride you have invested in it. When someone who has been there tells you "it ain't gonna work" ASK and learn why not! This is what happens when you go to people who actually know the problem instead of are guessing about it. I have seen programs -- that weren't pirated -- but were well researched and based on information from people who knew the real McCoy. These programs can and do teach solid "self-defense" information without the instructor him/herself having "been there." They won't teach you to fight, they won't teach you to "win" emotionally and they definately won't teach you to kick ass and take names by being an uber kung fu killer commando stud. But they will help you survive a wide variety of unexpected and unprovoked crime and violence. Which is what I call self-defense. And quite honestly, the reason the cops teach what they do is a) legal restrictions and b) for the caliber of the people they are teaching that is what they would be able to do. It's when you start mixing in other stuff that things get messy. Teaching you how to survive fighting and violence that you are a participant in and helped create isn't self-defense, that's fighting. And that is an entirely different set of problems. One that, the virgin and the porno movie analogy really applies. What's even worse, is that there are entirely too many martial arts instructors who think they know the difference but haven't a clue about the realities of either Marc Animal MacYoung --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "al sardinas" To: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:31:58 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Re: Complete Art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray you wrote: "A problem, of course, with the "complete" art approach is that it will be so vast that one would never be able to attain any significant level of expertise in even a subset of its elements. Concepts are great, but will concepts keep you from being submitted by a hooker? (No, not that kind of hooker, Rocky. :)..... But the problem is again, how does one continue to practice kicking, empty hands/elbows, standup grappling, ground grappling, weapons (ALL types), etc, etc (see "We Have That, Too" (TM)) and be able to roll with a BJJer, flow with an eskrimador, kick with a muay thai or TKDer, stay inside with a wing chun-er, grapple with a hapkido-er, etc..... It is easy to be a jack of all, but difficult to be a master of even one." I agree with everything you wrote to a point. Personally, due to age, body size and other factors I know that I will never to be able to attain a significant level of expertise in the vast arena of the Garimot System. That is why I concentrate on mastering the basics. Through these basics I master the concepts. Through these concepts I develop the mind. And ultimately it is the mind that will determine how well you succeed regardless of what or who is the opponent. To the question of how one can continue to practice and be able to roll, flow, kick and grapple, etc. the answer is not many. But I do know of one person who can do all that and more. He is not a master of one but a master of many. He is my instructor Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet. His background is martial arts, his future is martial arts. What he has to offer is available for everyone to explore now. Times have changed, Guro's arms are open now. Take advantage. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Todd Ellner To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:07:16 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Self Defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net With all due respect to Mr. Thompson I'm afraid he's not quite right. You don't have to have gotten in a lot of fights to be able to teach self defense. If what you've gotten is good and you have worked at it you can pass on something useful. Technical skills, fighting and teaching are three very different sets of abilities. There are very few people who are really good at even one of the three, let alone all of them. Let's take some really glaring examples. There are excellent drill instructors who do a fine job of training soldiers even though they have never been in a war. There are boxing coaches who haven't ever been pro boxers who put a fine edge on the fighters in their gyms. And there lots and lots of guys who can pug who, thank G-d, never get near a student because they would do much more harm than good. Experience is definitely good. But as long as what you're teaching is halfway decent and doesn't make too many glaring mistakes being a good teacher (a completely different skill than being a good fighter) is probably an awful lot more important. The next question is "What are your students training for?" A late-teens to mid-twenties athletic guy who gets into a little trouble now and then has much different needs than a professional such as a police officer, a soldier or a psychiatric orderly. A woman who wants to protect herself from violent criminals will have still different requirements. The same teacher, approach and curriculum isn't going to be right for all of these people. Some of the biggest disasters I've seen in women's self defense came from teachers who had been in a lot of fights, long-time cops and soldiers. They just couldn't understand that their experience wasn't relevant to their students' lives. A stand up brawl between young, fit men is worlds away from being smaller, weaker and dealing with the betrayal and confusion when someone you know turns into a werewolf. The specialized professional skills of a police officer are largely inappropriate for most people's self protection needs (Hint: I don't carry a club, a pistol, a shotgun, chemical weapons and handcuffs to work. And I don't have backup a phone call away). And military training is even further off. For one thing, most of us don't consider ourselves expendable in the normal course of events... Contrariwise, I've seen guys whose main claim to fame is having been young and dumb and gotten in a lot of fights. They try to parlay this into a career teaching defensive tactics to cops. It seldom works for very well. Let's be honest. For the younger guy mentioned above or the woman whose main concern is not getting raped or beaten the most important things are (in no particular order): - Recognizing trouble - Knowing when trouble can be avoided and when it's time to meet it head on - Not being stopped by pain, fear or hitting the ground - The ability to keep moving forward, protect oneself and dish out punishment until the attacker stops You don't have to be a feared street fighter to help with these. My guess is that while Mr. Thompson has a point he is also protecting his rice bowl. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:18:25 -0500 (EST) From: gordon walker To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re:complete art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, Get ready to be sliced and diced!!! Just kidding, Im not that "serious and dedicated". Regarding a complete art, and given the specialties involved with kickers, grapplers,Etc.Etc. I agree that it is folly to practice your complete arts interpretation of their specialties against them. I guess the completeness is that you have a background or at least an exposure to an area that the specialist cant cope with. In this sense, then, I think there is a "wholeness". I havent seen too many of the mma fighters obliterated by a kicking specialist or a boxer lately, so there seems to be some logic behind their approach. Whether the training is a frankenstein of bjj and muay thai or if its concepts based like the Estokada I practice is irrelevant. The results seem to be the same. Then again, the mma fighters all seem to be drawn to the same "style" or approach to fighting. Does that mean they are closer to the truth?? ang aking dalawang centimo. Gord --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:18:02 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony C Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Self-defence teaching To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I heartily agree. Just because one has been in a fight does not make you a superior teacher of the art. Massad Ayoob, one of the leading self defense firearms instructors in the country has never shot a man. He's been a police officer for over 20 years, taken many men at gunpoint, wrestled several to the ground, but never shot one. Does that make him a poor firearms instructors? Not at all. He interviews those who have been in shootings and other armed confrontations and extracts lessons from their experiences to share with others. By the same token, NYPD Stakeout Squad vet Jim Cirillo has been in 18 gunfights and has been training law enforcement officers most of his career. He is also an excellent instructor in his own right. I've trained with both and came away better equipped to face such a confrontation. Bottom line for me is that the training is based on some kind of real world precedent. Either directly or developed from it. Not just an idea. Young Forest wrote:Ray Terry wrote: >As Gm Cacoy recounts about the Saavedras, early members and leaders >of Doce Pares... The best fighter among them could not teach very well. >The best teacher among them could not fight very well. Couldn't agree more. Teaching ability is a skill, and being a fighter has no effect whatsoever on that skill. Lucky are those who learn under one who is a great fighter and a great teacher. And also from Ray Terry: >Just for fun I have pulled together an art called "We Have That, Too"(TM). >The list is long, so anything you can think of is in this art. My journey >also started c1968. During that time I've experienced a VERY wide variety >of arts, concepts, strategies, etc. But the problem is again, how does one >continue to practice kicking, empty hands/elbows, standup grappling, ground >grappling, weapons (ALL types), etc, etc (see "We Have That, Too" (TM)) and >be able to roll with a BJJer, flow with an eskrimador, kick with a muay >thai >or TKDer, stay inside with a wing chun-er, grapple with a hapkido-er, etc. Ahhh... the old joke - how many martial artists does it take to screw in a light bulb? Four - one to screw it in and three to say "we have that technique too, but we do it a little differently." Badger Jones Siling Labuyo Arnis _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfeeŽ Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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