Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:05:05 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #118 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Balintawak/Boxing (rockypasiwk) 2. Re: BJJ question (rocky pasiwk) (Dave Belanger) 3. Grand Master Estalilla article in Frenso Bee (A M) 4. re: self-defence (Marc Macyoung) 5. RE: The Gat Puno Abon and Rocky misunderstanding blues (Danny Anderson) 6. Ukrainian Katch (POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com) 7. End the Discord !!! (Jorge Penafiel) 8. RE: End the Discord !!! (Mike Casto) 9. Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Footwork and terrain drills (A M) 10. Re: FMA on the Table (Phil Hurcum) 11. Re: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Footwork and terrain drills (steven ledwith) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "rockypasiwk" To: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:08:55 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Balintawak/Boxing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mike Wrote: >WRT Bobby Taboada's Balintawak empty hands - unless he's changed them >since I saw them in '95/'96, they are distinctly Balintawak in that they >use the same motions as the Cuentada drills but, especially when he does >them, his boxing background is very evident. I don't know whether he >learned the empty hands from the Balintawak or if he added them to his >system based on his background in boxing (and maybe Karate but when he >did them they had a distinct boxing flavor to them). Gm Buot had some boxing so his emoty hand has some boxing flavor too, I think its because boxing body mechanics, are very simular to Balintawaks, at least Gm Buots, and Remys version. We tend to bob and weave a little more than most stick arts I have seen. GM Bacon also boxed some, I think boxing is pretty popular with Filipino's. Rocky --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:17:47 -0800 (PST) From: Dave Belanger To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: BJJ question (rocky pasiwk) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I know that they both originated from the Gracie Family system in Brazil and although similar, there are subtle differences in execution of technique. Being a student in the Machado style, and not Gracie specifically, I cannot comment further than this as to these subtleties. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:39:36 -0800 (PST) From: A M To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Grand Master Estalilla article in Frenso Bee Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There is an excellent article on Grand Master Ramiro Estalilla in the Fresno Bee: http://www.fresnoneighbors.com/sports/story/8295353p-9137360c.html Respectfully, Guro Anthony Manansala Estalilla Kabaron Eskrima http://estalillakabaroan.com W.O.R. www.kabaroan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:02:35 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] re: self-defence Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Julian Gilmour writes: > > Marc MacYoung said a couple of things I found really interesting. "There is > > a difference between self-defence and martial arts". Todd commented > This has been news to the martial arts community. The self defensers > recognized it a long time ago. Martial arts can be very useful in > self defense if taken in the right spirit. But they are different > games. Todd, first let me start out by saying this a very well thought out and articulated post. It does really help define the differences. Allow me to add an idea to head off possible misunderstandings. Something my attorney Paul Speigal often says when we are going over contracts is: Everyone knows what something means until there is a problem. We all come to the table with individual definitions in our heads as to what a word means. Often, communication goes awry because although two people are using the same word, what they mean is completely different. Until you sit down and specifically outline what each of you mean about a word the possibility of miscommunication and related problems remains a very high possibility. Many people use the terms martial arts, self-defense, fighting and sparring almost interchangebly. If these words are homogonized in someone's mind then then what you just said will be immediately rejected. Because after all they are pretty much the same thing so what you said is obviously wrong. However, when you begin to look at the specifics involved in the problems. That is when it starts becoming clear that there are not only radical differences in conditions, goals, circumstances and complications, but that using these terms interchangibly is like introducing your brother Darryl and your other brother Darryl. I often define the difference between fighting and self-defense as "In fighting you are part of the problem." In other words, a fight is an escalating conflict that you are actively participating in. Willing or no, you are assisting in its creation and escalation. It is important to realize that you may not be wanting to fight, but your choice of actions is a critical component in escalating the situation -- especially if you feel you must defend your pride or show him that you are a man not to be trifled with. These kinds of situations do escalate into violence quite often and when the police show up, both sides claim they were defending themselves. Unfortunately, often the witnesses say "Nope, they were both to blame" Whereas self-defense is really something that comes out of nowhere and you have no choice. Yep, that mugger really did just step out of the shadows. Or yes, after you tried to sincerly apologize to Bubba he decided that you needed an asskicking because he had a bad day on the loading docks. It is interesting to note the laws in many, many different countries all pretty much agree on one thing, while self-defense is legal, fighting isn't. But what if someone doesn't differeniate between martial arts and self-defense? Or do they believe that their martial arts trains them for self-defense, when in fact, it is more oriented on teaching people how to "fight" My suggestion to people is that you think long and hard on exactly what do you mean by martial arts? Self-defense? Fighting? Sparring? Do you use these words interchangibly and without consideration that while maybe in your mind you know what you are talking about, but that the person hearing you might have an entirely different definition of the word? And then after you have come to a clear, conscise definition of what you mean by the word, go out and check it out with other people, other fields other professions to see what they mean when they use the word. Todd had several valid and important points that the correctness of them will not become clear until you look at his post from the standpoint of "what do you mean when you say martial arts? Self-defense?" M --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Danny Anderson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 19:42:25 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: The Gat Puno Abon and Rocky misunderstanding blues Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear Gat Puno Abon & Rocky, It sure sounds like there is some mis-duplication of communication here. Gat Puno, I know Rocky well enough to know when he is complaining about those who "claim" to have the complete style, he is talking about someone who hasn't been, for lack of a better term, "road tested." It's these guys who claim, bellow, yap yap yap all day long about how complete their system is without ever having had proven it. We've all seen the guys in their immaculate uniforms, hair neatly combed without a scar proclaiming their greatness. The "claimers." Well, you grew up where you had to prove it in the Philippines. Rocky grew up where he had to prove it in the streets, as well. You are both proud, successful fighters, unwilling to back off of a challenge. What I have read in you two's posts is more of an intellectual or conceptual challenge than a personal one. I read it in this light, "There are so many ways to be attacked and so many possible scenarios for surviving a street fight, can one style teach them all?" I bet you two have far more in common than you think and if you got together you'd be laughing and getting along within ten minutes. My 2 cents worth. Yours, Dan Anderson _________________________________________________________________ All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn --__--__-- Message: 6 From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 14:50:10 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Ukrainian Katch Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I have taught some > Ukrainian grappling to a former Gracie student, but I have never seen any of > the Machodo stuff. > Rocky > There you go again Rocky. Teasing us with the Ukrainian Katch. Other than Tony Cecchine and Guy Chase, you are the only one with a background in this. How 'bout some future DVD's?? I had a recent email chat with Guy Chase by the way. We may some Harimau-Catch material on it's way. Pretty cool. Tom Furman WWW.physicalstrategies.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:51:16 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] End the Discord !!! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Whoaa,,,, somehow its time to park this discussion about Art Completeness. How about let's "supposed" to all agree that in general FMA is a Complete Art???By what Definition or System you practiced, answer this question in your heart. We could agree to disagree with this line of thought with wisdom, humor, sarcasm, egotistically, bravely, whatever, and the end results would still be your own answer. This is just my thinking. Now,,,it's Miller time and watch College Basketball. Mike C. - hello!! Yeah, GM Bobby T. was an ex-pro boxer and also had training in Karate/Kung -Fu as evidence to how he does/applies his empty hand in Balintawak. He said that if he had remained as a boxer he'd still be in Cebu healing the pain of professional boxing and no glory and no money as back then pro-boxers were paid chicken feed. Jorge V. Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] End the Discord !!! Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 16:10:15 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net LOL. How're you doing Jorge? Mike -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Penafiel [mailto:totoamy@fuse.net] Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 3:51 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] End the Discord !!! Whoaa,,,, somehow its time to park this discussion about Art Completeness. How about let's "supposed" to all agree that in general FMA is a Complete Art???By what Definition or System you practiced, answer this question in your heart. We could agree to disagree with this line of thought with wisdom, humor, sarcasm, egotistically, bravely, whatever, and the end results would still be your own answer. This is just my thinking. Now,,,it's Miller time and watch College Basketball. Mike C. - hello!! Yeah, GM Bobby T. was an ex-pro boxer and also had training in Karate/Kung -Fu as evidence to how he does/applies his empty hand in Balintawak. He said that if he had remained as a boxer he'd still be in Cebu healing the pain of professional boxing and no glory and no money as back then pro-boxers were paid chicken feed. Jorge V. Penafiel _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 13:26:54 -0800 (PST) From: A M Subject: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Footwork and terrain drills To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray, Sigung Ed Bansueulo also teaches us some Serrada (Cabales-Davis). One of the things he did was place us up us against a wall...That tightened us real quick (especially since we had been doing Kabaroan the hour before). Something I like doing, is "shaddow boxing" lock and block drills in a doorway of the house. My wife isn't too fond of that...I keep gouging the door frames. :) I think it would be easy to construct a 2x4 wood frame "doorway" for training. Mike Inay's plank sounds a lot like the "enviromental training" so often used by the old masters. And it still rings true today. Respectfully, ===== Guru Anthony Manansala Estalilla Bansuelo Kabaroan/Serrada W.O.R. www.kabaroan.com www.estalillakabaroan.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:24:01 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Hurcum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: FMA on the Table Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Interesting letter, on several points I really feel the need to comment especially on the need for combat as a testing ground. One needs look no further than some of our very close martial neighbours to see the effect of a lack of combat over several generations. The cumulative result is a great deal of theory and very little practice. A lot of voice but little effect. The reality of this is actually tangible in several ways. Some of which has probably benefited you personally. >>Bottom line, all of the above is great for FMA - we are a vastly growing and recognized MA today. Pop-in FMA instructors as annoying as spam mails, but hey,, they are there to spread our art. These guys needs our help - so why not?? They are neophytes in the business and our brothers too, let's give them a break for whatever transgressions they commit.<< First of all countless industries have gone through this scenario previously. A lack of credible and qualified instructors/tradesmen/repairmen/professionals leaves a public perception of incompetence and a lack of credibility. This ultimately affects us all. I don’t think it is paranoid to say there are people out there who for their own benefit would love to take advantage of this sort of perception to discredit and soil their competition. My own personal opinion is that these instructors should be forced to walk the walk. You say it you play it. Tying this in to your second point and a theme rippling through the digest within recent episodes. >>(sic) .. Reality Training and Combat: Popular concept today may not last tomorrow!!! Why the desire for such an activity - for what??? To show/prove that we can fight??? Do most people really care about this??? Not - small followers and a lot of hurt for small money. << Does an instructor need to have credible experience fighting to teach. While there are a lot of arguments pro and con, I am going to slide a little sideways, it is not unreasonable in mind to have a student who will fight or prove through some sort of sparring experience, the validity of the current application of club style. If you have a school operating now you have without a doubt received some benefit from the current resurgence of interest in the martial arts. This is due in no small part to the explosion of the MMA scene. As one of the fastest growing sports in N.America I can see why we might want to follow their lead instead of following, something watered down and frozen in time. As far as student numbers go, until I closed my doors to the public I consistently had 17 to 20 students 4 years in a row. These men and women trained with me twice a week and were there because we were training in an aggressive and attack oriented manner. It was very clear that only those who wished to fight would. Yet the high point of the week was sparring class. When we stripped down and fought with minimal equipment, the first try for someone was always a big step. However after that initial experience was confronted and people realised they could actually spar like this and hold their own, the personal growth was amazing. I firmly believe that bigger gains were made in a student’s progress after this jump was accomplished. The amount of confidence gained was without a doubt noticeable by all and the effect would ripple outward into the student body. When we were starting out we trained in the snow and the rain year round and they stayed. Admittedly this route is not for everyone, and the perception is not always positive. Idiot’s like McCain would love to see us go. MMA and RealContact (TM Marc Denny) fighting both. Yet it has been proved time and time again that what we do is safer than Boxing or Golf. We display more sportsmanship than most major league sports at this time, the NHL being a very visible and relevant example. He!!, what we do is safer than eating McCains’ family product, French or Freedom ;] fries. Nice but they kill you. Finally, for me the most tangible benefit to the reality fighting question. Arrogance is generally not tolerated. You cannot get away with shooting your mouth off, someone is going to call you on it. You put up or you are a big gurl. Most times you lose there is a lot of joking around after and it builds a better relationship between the group. In a time when there are a lot of young men and women looking to music, pop culture or product ideologies for identity and definition, the breakdown of the community and family unit, why not give them something strong to belong to. Reduce the false pride and replace it with confidence and self worth. Something tangible and measurable. A real world skill set. As for the small money and a lot of hurt., well in the seven years I have operated my club we have yet to experience anything greater, knock on wood, than a broken thumb. The guy who did it was training for a point style tournament. We haven’t even had a bloody nose. Further the lack of money, IT’S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY MAN!! A job is for money, Love to hear it, Phil ===== Phil Hurcum .:Head Instructor:. Arkangel Martial Arts and Combat Sciences "Honour, Duty, Obligation, and Discipline" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:47:03 -0800 (PST) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Footwork and terrain drills To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have a training partner that is a very experienced SCA fighter and he showed me how he would use a doorway based on his experience fighting behind a shield , very enlightening I must say. He uses the door jam as a shield and everything in the door way is a target. I would recomend that every stick fighter who can should put on the heavy armor and grab a shield then spar with some of the heavy hitting SCA guys. --- A M wrote: > Ray, > > Sigung Ed Bansueulo also teaches us some Serrada > (Cabales-Davis). One of the things he did was place > us up us against a wall...That tightened us real > quick > (especially since we had been doing Kabaroan the > hour > before). > > Something I like doing, is "shaddow boxing" lock and > block drills in a doorway of the house. My wife > isn't > too fond of that...I keep gouging the door frames. > :) > > I think it would be easy to construct a 2x4 wood > frame > "doorway" for training. > > Mike Inay's plank sounds a lot like the > "enviromental > training" so often used by the old masters. And it > still rings true today. > > Respectfully, > > > ===== > Guru Anthony Manansala > Estalilla Bansuelo Kabaroan/Serrada > W.O.R. > www.kabaroan.com > www.estalillakabaroan.com > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest