Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 03:01:49 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #120 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: re: self-defence (Magnus Larsson) 2. Thanks Phil !!! (Jorge Penafiel) 3. Ukrainian Ground work (rockypasiwk) 4. Technique Masters (rockypasiwk) 5. RE: Self-Defense Experience (WoodyTX) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 20:48:58 -0800 (PST) From: Magnus Larsson Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re: self-defence To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr Macyoung, for me, you pretty much nailed it there. Its that very fine definition that people tend to miss. For a fight to be a fight, by definition, it takes two to Tango. Self defence is a whole diffrent ballpark, the difference is as vast as the Grand Canyon. Espessally in the eyes of the law. A story comes to mind about a friend of mine; One night he falls asleep on the couch in his living room with the door to the balcony open. He suddenly wakes up to the sound of somebody climbing up the balcony. He instantly flyes up, grabs a baseball bat and when the shadow of a man steps in he takes one big whack at the guys head. The guy goes down, of course! To my friend it was a open case of self defence of his life and property. Unfortunatly the court did not see it that way. (because the intruder died!) The court felt that my friend used to much force, that that amaunt of violence was not justified. My friend feels he was railroaded by the legal mashinery. One might have many opinions abaut this, how its easy to have all the answers after the fact and how was my friend supposed to know that this burgular was not armed to the teeth etc. But one fact remains, and that is, that this is how the legal system views things. So if you want to stay on the straght and narrow, its best that you know these things. And prepare accordanly. Awareness and Avoidance should always be your first line of defence. As Mr Macyoung puts it; "if you start to participate in the escalation game you are part of the problem". So yes, avoidance is the ultimate self defence technique if you ask me. THIS CANNOT BE REPEATED TO MANY TIMES! Anyways, thats my take on it. Sincerly, Mal : > Julian Gilmour writes: > > Marc MacYoung said a couple of things I found really interesting. "There is > > a difference between self-defence and martial arts". Todd commented > This has been news to the martial arts community. The self defensers > recognized it a long time ago. Martial arts can be very useful in > self defense if taken in the right spirit. But they are different > games. Todd, first let me start out by saying this a very well thought out and articulated post. It does really help define the differences. Allow me to add an idea to head off possible misunderstandings. Something my attorney Paul Speigal often says when we are going over contracts is: Everyone knows what something means until there is a problem. We all come to the table with individual definitions in our heads as to what a word means. Often, communication goes awry because although two people are using the same word, what they mean is completely different. Until you sit down and specifically outline what each of you mean about a word the possibility of miscommunication and related problems remains a very high possibility. Many people use the terms martial arts, self-defense, fighting and sparring almost interchangebly. If these words are homogonized in someone's mind then then what you just said will be immediately rejected. Because after all they are pretty much the same thing so what you said is obviously wrong. However, when you begin to look at the specifics involved in the problems. That is when it starts becoming clear that there are not only radical differences in conditions, goals, circumstances and complications, but that using these terms interchangibly is like introducing your brother Darryl and your other brother Darryl. I often define the difference between fighting and self-defense as "In fighting you are part of the problem." In other words, a fight is an escalating conflict that you are actively participating in. Willing or no, you are assisting in its creation and escalation. It is important to realize that you may not be wanting to fight, but your choice of actions is a critical component in escalating the situation -- especially if you feel you must defend your pride or show him that you are a man not to be trifled with. These kinds of situations do escalate into violence quite often and when the police show up, both sides claim they were defending themselves. Unfortunately, often the witnesses say "Nope, they were both to blame" Whereas self-defense is really something that comes out of nowhere and you have no choice. Yep, that mugger really did just step out of the shadows. Or yes, after you tried to sincerly apologize to Bubba he decided that you needed an asskicking because he had a bad day on the loading docks. It is interesting to note the laws in many, many different countries all pretty much agree on one thing, while self-defense is legal, fighting isn't. But what if someone doesn't differeniate between martial arts and self-defense? Or do they believe that their martial arts trains them for self-defense, when in fact, it is more oriented on teaching people how to "fight" My suggestion to people is that you think long and hard on exactly what do you mean by martial arts? Self-defense? Fighting? Sparring? Do you use these words interchangibly and without consideration that while maybe in your mind you know what you are talking about, but that the person hearing you might have an entirely different definition of the word? And then after you have come to a clear, conscise definition of what you mean by the word, go out and check it out with other people, other fields other professions to see what they mean when they use the word. Todd had several valid and important points that the correctness of them will not become clear until you look at his post from the standpoint of "what do you mean when you say martial arts? Self-defense?" M _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 02:27:02 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Thanks Phil !!! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings Phil !! Delighted that you found my initial FMA post interesting. Happy to contribute in some way to recent and previous FMA table topics bought about. As extent of post is a constraint, I kind of shorten some of my thinking points. I appreciate your gentlemanly and noble way of giving fed-back and elucidating some points out of my post. Thanks !!! OK,,since at the end you wrote the "you love to hear it" I take that a dialogue is forthright.. So here goes. 1.. Need for combat as testing ground : Whole heatedly agree and the benefits mine to keep. Considering the time, effort, hard-core training, and instructions, of course the ultimate goal and reward for every martial artist is attainment of the winner price and honor via any MA competitions/event of choice. Rewarding pleasure indeed !!! I reserved my thoughts and caution though as for the need to combat tests in the " street" as even a self-defense claim will put us in some regrettable predicaments. Just an add-on view point. 2.. Pop- Up Instructors: Sadly, till we have Licensing board or any other form of Certification Process these people will be around us as "assets or pain"to our sides. Fact though was the bad ones weed themselves out but how about the good ones?? He may turn out yet to be one of the best Instructors around. Difficult stuff and we just have to let and maybe help them as there is no law against this. 3.. Reality Training and Combat: I should have said popular concept today, but not the cup of tea for the majority. I have to let go one of my best fighter who thinks that his fellow students and our dojo was for his training camp for an Ultimate- cage fight. Good fighter and proves the validity of some techniques taught but I was losing students. Students refused to come back to avoid being hurt and not be able to go to work after the work-out. Like you said "job is for money". I'm not in this for the money either ($30/month),,,some Instructors laughs at me for charging this amount. The not much money and lot of hurt thing refers to the price money these ultimate fighters earn for getting their faces busted and who knows the internal damages to body. Ok,,,guess it's long enough. I enjoy this healthy dialogue and now won't be adamant anymore to also put my two cents contribution to the digest. Looking forward to some more exchanges. Regards to your group!!! >From my heart I welcome you - our Balintawak salutation. Jorge V. Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "rockypasiwk" To: Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:41:46 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Ukrainian Ground work Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Tom, >There you go again Rocky. Teasing us with the Ukrainian Katch. Other than >Tony Cecchine and Guy Chase, you are the only one with a background in this. >How >'bout some future DVD's?? FIrst Tom if your are ever in Michigan, I would be more than happy to show you what little I know. Like I said before, I am not qualified to teach Ukrainian Grappleing or Katch fighting, I recommend Tony Ciccene (sp) probablly the last American Hooker. I am not really even a journeyman in Katch, or Ukrainian, I was poisoned as a kid by a 1973 Movie called Enter the Dragon, the more my dad tried to get me into his method of fighting, the more I wanted to where cool outfits, jump up and scream and throw fancy kicks, I was just a kid, and after all my dad was just a dad, but Bruce was a star surely he was better than my dad!!!!!!!!!! Ok Doc. and you guys I am already waiting for the key board beating :-) but I would have been ten times the fighter I am if I would have listen to my pop's he probably had more real true, NHB'd fights in a few months then Bruce had in his life, I was talking to a guy that had a lot of the history of the fights at the snake pit in England, he claims that they actually locked the doors, and you fought to everyone was done, if you were hurt bad, you would have to wait till they unlocked the doors. My dad almost bled to death there, someone bit a chunck out of his chin, actually took some of the bone! When he got lung cancer from asbestos exposure at the end of his life the Dr.s were amazed at the number of mouth shaped scares on his body especially the one on the chin and inside of his knee, and forearm, but thats real NHB'd fighting. Not my cup of tea thank you!, thats why they make guns ;-) Any ways Tom that is why I don't feel comfortable, that, and I know this is going to sound lame, but Ukrainian throws, are not practicable, my father always said if you have to fight a guy after you have thrown him down you have done something wrong, he use to get in trouble in Judo for throwing people and try to land on them at the same time, with his elbow of knee or what ever. He always said a person should break when they fall. By the time I was old enough to appreciate my dad's stuff he was getting older and the time was just not their. I can tell you this a big big chunk of Remys chokes and ground stuff that he incorperated into his stuff and Wally Jays Small Circle stuff came from my Pop's they use to roll on the mat all the time, my Pop's was 20 years older then Remy ( He had me real late in life) and he never had a problem stoping Professor on the matt. We use to all play together along with a friend of mine Migul Balboa, a Pikiti guy, we would team up on my dad and Remy and give them pink belly's or nuggies to the head, Remy and Miguel might hold my dad while I torchered him or my dad and I my hold Remy while Miguel would get Remy, we had lots of fun, of course we always finished the night with Ice Cream, my dad was an Ice Cream eating Machine. We were wrestling in the living room at home one time and broke a lamp, my mom went balistic on Remy and my dad with a broom, I was to quick (14yrs old) and got out side, again we went and got Ice Cream while she cooled off. So anyways I can always teach you what I know, I throw it in at seminars, but make no mistakes I am not claiming to have it all or even half of it, I have surprised a few much better ground fighters then my self from time to time. Rocky --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "rockypasiwk" To: Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:55:29 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Technique Masters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net With all the talk about being complete and everything, how many of you have ever met a person who was very incomplete as a martial artist, but had one or maybe two very good techniques that they just worked over and over and over untill they were so good they could almost land it at will. I remember a black belt in TSD when I was younger, by the time I was 15 I was cleaning the clocks of most of the Dan menmbers in our club, and Iwas much better then this one 2nd Dan, but he had a front kick that was just incredable, no matter what he coulf fire that thing off, anf I mean he took out some very good fighters with it, you kne it was coming but just couldn't stop it!! Rocky P.S Master Anderson, thanks for the kind words, I don't want to mis lead people Iactually grew up in a upper midle class neighborhood, I made some bad choices to run with some very ruff crowds in S.W Detroit. I thought it was cool to be a tough guy, and to be looked up to because I was in the collection business at 16 years old, not my best moments in life, and definately not my fathers proudest moment, when he found out. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "WoodyTX" To: Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 12:38:45 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Self-Defense Experience Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > On the subject of teaching self-defense, > it makes sense that virgins should > not teach sex (to use the apt comparison > by Animal), but how much of a slut > should one be before one is qualified to teach? > Michael Koblic > Campbell River, BC Just to throw a few kinks into the argument: There are women who've obviously never played tackle football, yet are better at analyzing a team's performance than many with that experience. There are many coaches (pick any sport) who sucked at the sport, but became awesome coaches. Your skill as an instructor is not necessarily determined by your physical ability. And there are many athletes who don't know why they do what they do on the field, just that it works. An interviewer once asked Emmitt Smith why he picked a certain line on a successful play, and the answer was basically, "I don't know, it just seemed right." Not to downplay actual experience in self-defense situations, but it seems that one doesn't need actual combat experience, but one does need exposure to all the elements that make up a self-defense situation: stress, confusion, fear, and the mental vapor-lock that comes with them. I would even suggest that someone with experience in a self-defense situation would be better at teaching the mindset and needed aggression than the actual techniques. That said, the techniques do need to be tested in some sense. Not the choreographed "he throws a punch, and you grab his fist, hit him here, here, and here, then kick him here, then he throws another punch...." Simplicity is critical. While martial artists can get involved in multiple layers of attack and defense, the average Joe (or Jane) needs simple techniques that can be quickly integrated at the muscle memory level. Just my $0.02. Kurt Schneider --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest