Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:09:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #122 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Eskrima Self Defense (Todd Ellner) 2. Re: self defense (Todd Ellner) 3. Thank you for the reply (Phil Hurcum) 4. RE: Ukrainian Ground work (dwayne howie) 5. Stefs Point (rockypasiwk) 6. blowgun tournament (rob mulligan) 7. Re: bjj, and completeness (al sardinas) 8. Re: MA's habits (Ray Terry) 9. self-defense and the art of bouncing (Marc Macyoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:19:42 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima Self Defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Buz writes: >This is a bit of an amalgam of a couple threads going on right now, but >has anyone had experience with the RAD (Rape Aggression Defense) >system? I've seen it taught several times at the place where I work out >on campus. Pretty spooky stuff, if you ask me. Seemed like it was >assumed all rapists would be standing flat footed in a wide stance with >arms outstretched, for instance. To my mind the young women in the >class would have been a lot better off drilling jab, cross, right kick, >run away, for the duration of their training instead of the watered >down set stance stuff I saw. I'm not a RAD instructor, but I've looked into the program a bit. What I saw was not terribly impressive. There was a lot of emphasis, as you say, on set stance/set response stuff. And I didn't have a lot of confidence that it would be very useful against a bigger, stronger, aggressive attacker. Tiel and I decided that it was not worth pursuing and spent our money going to AWSDA (http://www.awsda.org - a great organization) conventions instead. I won't go off on the "ladylike self defense rant" right now. Suffice it to say that a lot of really good people teach women delicate girly "hit scream run away, you can't possibly hurt him" crap. If their male students were in similar situations they'd teach "Rip his damned head off and beat him to death with it, go all out." They have not, Rocky's opinions notwithstanding, learned anything from the past 30 years of research on self defense. >The class is taught by campus cops, most of whom I know, I kinda wanted >to inject my $.02 into the curriculum, and thought it might be amusing >to see what my right Thai kick could do to the RedMan suit guy, and so >pulled one of the cops aside and asked what it would take to help with >the class. Big Bucks was the short answer. There were formal >instructors' classes with levels of instructorship, and a well >established curriculum that could not be strayed from. I asked what the >qualifications were to take an instructor's class; the ability to >respirate and follow the narrow curriculum to the letter seemed the >primary quals. Yep. That's how it and a lot of others work. This is the difference between training in defensive tactics and education in survival skills. The former requires the ability to regurgitate canned solutions on demand, solutions which are designed to fit the organizational and liability demands of the Department's or college administrator's legal advisors. Real self defense instruction is mostly about changing the students' minds, the way the look at the world, their attitude towards a lot of things. The biggest lesson is that they CAN do what they need to to survive and prevail. >Any one else out there acquainted with RAD? Does someone want to >disabuse me of any misconceptions? So far I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe you are wrong. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:36:37 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: self defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net [Marc writes many True Things(tm)] One thing you will notice if you hang around any place where Marc and I both are is that we are in vehement agreement about the essential stuff. We both like to argue and yell at each other a lot about words and semantics. As they say "A bunch of martial artists get together and a fight breaks out. Quel surprise." :-) What lies at the bottom are some serious issues. What do you do? Why do you do it? Does it fit what you want? What you say you want? What you really need? Once you've figured out what the real answers to these are you are in a position to go find someone who can teach you and not waste your time with someone who is working really hard at teaching something else. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:45:26 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Hurcum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Thank you for the reply Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the reply Jorge, I hear you about the monthly fee, I am charging the same thing in CDN. No one laughs but I'm always broke. Happy with my guys though. Excellent point on the instructor topic. The majority of the bad ones do eventually just fade away. Maybe not as quick as we like but none the less. As far as streetfighting is concerned I would have to agree with you that that is definitly the least desired arena. I am sorry to hear about your student, that is never pleasant. I appreciate your reply, and look forward to conversing with you again, again thank you, ===== Phil Hurcum .:Head Instructor:. Arkangel Martial Arts and Combat Sciences "Honour, Duty, Obligation, and Discipline" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "dwayne howie" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Ukrainian Ground work Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:14:20 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hey rocky, this is my first time contributing, i just wanted to say that what your dad said was right about the throwing. in old school judo a lot of folks call the throw that you land on the person, full circle. that is the difference i've noticed in western u.s. judo and eastern u.s. a lot of times the judoka out west would do a throw and not go full circle or even go to the mat with them. please forgive me if this has changed, that was many years ago and i'm sure it was not all dojos. in japan up to the 80's on of the first things investigated in murder scenes was to see if the person had cracked or broken heels from a throw. thanks everyone for the info, dwayne >From: "rockypasiwk" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [Eskrima] Ukrainian Ground work >Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:41:46 -0500 > >Hey Tom, > > >There you go again Rocky. Teasing us with the Ukrainian Katch. Other than > >Tony Cecchine and Guy Chase, you are the only one with a background in >this. > >How > >'bout some future DVD's?? > >FIrst Tom if your are ever in Michigan, I would be more than happy to show >you >what little I know. Like I said before, I am not qualified to teach >Ukrainian >Grappleing or Katch fighting, I recommend Tony Ciccene (sp) probablly the >last >American Hooker. I am not really even a journeyman in Katch, or Ukrainian, >I >was poisoned as a kid by a 1973 Movie called Enter the Dragon, the more my >dad >tried to get me into his method of fighting, the more I wanted to where >cool >outfits, jump up and scream and throw fancy kicks, I was just a kid, and >after >all my dad was just a dad, but Bruce was a star surely he was better than >my >dad!!!!!!!!!! Ok Doc. and you guys I am already waiting for the key board >beating :-) but I would have been ten times the fighter I am if I would >have >listen to my pop's he probably had more real true, NHB'd fights in a few >months then Bruce had in his life, I was talking to a guy that had a lot of >the history of the fights at the snake pit in England, he claims that they >actually locked the doors, and you fought to everyone was done, if you were >hurt bad, you would have to wait till they unlocked the doors. My dad >almost >bled to death there, someone bit a chunck out of his chin, actually took >some >of the bone! When he got lung cancer from asbestos exposure at the end of >his >life the Dr.s were amazed at the number of mouth shaped scares on his body >especially the one on the chin and inside of his knee, and forearm, but >thats >real NHB'd fighting. Not my cup of tea thank you!, thats why they make guns >;-) > > Any ways Tom that is why I don't feel comfortable, that, and I know this >is >going to sound lame, but Ukrainian throws, are not practicable, my father >always said if you have to fight a guy after you have thrown him down you >have >done something wrong, he use to get in trouble in Judo for throwing people >and >try to land on them at the same time, with his elbow of knee or what ever. >He >always said a person should break when they fall. By the time I was old >enough >to appreciate my dad's stuff he was getting older and the time was just not >their. I can tell you this a big big chunk of Remys chokes and ground stuff >that he incorperated into his stuff and Wally Jays Small Circle stuff came >from my Pop's they use to roll on the mat all the time, my Pop's was 20 >years >older then Remy ( He had me real late in life) and he never had a problem >stoping Professor on the matt. We use to all play together along with a >friend >of mine Migul Balboa, a Pikiti guy, we would team up on my dad and Remy and >give them pink belly's or nuggies to the head, Remy and Miguel might hold >my >dad while I torchered him or my dad and I my hold Remy while Miguel would >get >Remy, we had lots of fun, of course we always finished the night with Ice >Cream, my dad was an Ice Cream eating Machine. We were wrestling in the >living >room at home one time and broke a lamp, my mom went balistic on Remy and my >dad with a broom, I was to quick (14yrs old) and got out side, again we >went >and got Ice Cream while she cooled off. > >So anyways I can always teach you what I know, I throw it in at seminars, >but >make no mistakes I am not claiming to have it all or even half of it, I >have >surprised a few much better ground fighters then my self from time to time. > >Rocky >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "rockypasiwk" To: Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:29:28 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Stefs Point Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Stef Wrote: >it is with self defense. Someone who carries the scars of a lifetime >of bouncing off of cars, might not necessarily be the best person to go >to when wanting to learn how to safely cross the road. You know that's a pretty damn good analogy!! My own personal experience is you are who you hang with, if you hang or train with people who get into lots of fights, you will get tough or dead. Better to train with someone who was stupid enough to get into a bunch of street fights when they were younger, like your truly :-) , but then grew up and learned that avoidance is the key to a healthy happy life. My dad had two rules when I was growing up, 1st you run from a fight I kick your ass, 2nd you start a fight I kick your ass. So I can honestly say I never started a fight, I just made my self conveniently available when Sh&t hit the fan. Like most stupid people I learned to twist the rules a little bit. But you live you learn and you try to pass it on to others, and I think good instructors, or at least instructors with good intentions don't want their students to get that kind of experience, especially today, when it seems like every idiot out there has a gun!!! When guy that you beat up drives by in a car and unloads a dozen bullets in your ass you can high karate, kung foey, what ever else you practice but, you aint stop'n those itty bitty peaces of lead flying your way!!! Just my 2 bits Rocky --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "rob mulligan" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:49:44 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] blowgun tournament Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net PG Marinas asked me to post this, i'm sure Ray will appreciate it...   The National Sporst Blowgun Association (NSBA) will hold a tournament on sports  blowgun in June 2004 in Pennsylvania. Those interested may send their email to   craftsman@enter.net for any questions or details. The Head of the ISBA, Dr. Hironori Higuchi, is schedule to come and compete.   Amante P. Marinas Sr.  Chairman, International Sports Blowgun Association (ISBA; Nagaoka, Japan)  Honorary Meijin, National Sports Blowgun Association (NSBA; Pennsylvania, USA)  Author, Pananandata Guide to Sports Blowgun (1999, United Cutlery Corp)  Founder, Pananandata   Rob Mulligan KWIKSTIK.COM                             ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "al sardinas" To: Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:59:38 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: bjj, and completeness Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" Dr. Fung wrote " Just when you think you have a complete art you see something new. If you don't see anything new you need new training partners and or a visit to So Cal. . Everything seeems to be here in multiple ways. If you really think you are complete and have stopped learning and modifying your personal system IMHO you are setting yourself set up to be beaten. Training is like a job. It never ends and someone is always asking for something else." Okay, I thought the subject of completeness was over. My previous comments were: A complete art for me encompasses weapons, empty-hand, kicking, wrestling and internal arts. What I do is not complete but I know if I wanted to learn how to fight or defend myself in different scenarios I do not have to seek another system or style for an answer because again "for me" the Garimot system is complete.....I'm always looking for a system or style that has techniques that can not be countered by a Garimot concept and maybe someday I will find this "Sedna" but for now I have not. Dr. Fung, based on what you wrote my new comments are that just because something is new does not necessarily make it effective. Is it not conceivable that an art that is over 300 years old have an answer to an art that is only 10 years old? Finally, when it comes down to it, in spite of a million new techniques, an opponent will have only two hands and two feet that one will have to contend with. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] MA's habits To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:22:06 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > went TKD was famous for their powerful kicks and figthing out of a side > stance, in Anciongs Balintawak, we tend to stand simular to a boxer wit our > sticks tip back slightly, in Remys Balintawak, the lead hand was always > forwardand empty hand behind. > > I was wondering if other could chime in about things that they might do that > make people say oh! ea he must do such and such art. > > Example JKD guys practice for hours posing like Bruce Lee ;-) , the thumb and > little pinky extended, other three fingers down, you know what I mean, you can > tell a JKD guy from a mile away, how about the Serrada guys, anything > different about the Cabilis, or Inay guys, in Pekiti here in Michigan, the > weight was almost always on the back foot and lots of movement with the > stick. > > Well what say the rest of you. You can always tell the Inayans. They're the one standing over the broken and bloodied bodies of their opponents... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:31:43 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] self-defense and the art of bouncing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: "Stef Morley" > I like most others have great respect for those who have survived > countless life threatening encounters, and lived to tell the rest of us > what its like, and what we could learn from it. But If we go on the > premise that awareness and avoidance are the first and best lines of self > defense, then it could be argued that someone who had made a career of > avoiding violence would be equally qualified to teach the most effective > self defense techniques. > So it is with self defense. Someone who carries the scars of a lifetime > of bouncing off of cars, might not necessarily be the best person to go > to when wanting to learn how to safely cross the road. While the idea behind what you say is good, the argument is somewhat flawed -- especially if someone doesn't understand that there is a difference between fighting and self-defense (or worse, doesn't want to). You make a valid point, but it still overlooks the misunderstanding of the complexities of the problem. Still keeping it simple, let's liken the differences between self-defense, fighting and professional use of force/combat to the differences between safety in hiking through bear territory vs. fighting bears vs. hunting bears. The different levels each present their own problems, specialized needs and -- most importantly -- mindsets. Self-defense mindset is really about knowing what equipment you need to be safe from bears while hiking. It is basic awareness, avoidance, knowledge and things to do if you unexpectedly come around a bend in the path and see a bear. Now one of the most important things you can tell people is NOT to stick their heads into bears dens. So from that standpoint, someone who has done a really good job of avoiding violence is qualified to teach self-defense. This is what a bear looks like, this is where it lurks, this should keep you and bears from meeting, this is what to do if you do meet a bear. With that in mind, you are right about someone with scars teaching self-defense. You gotta watch what someone who has been involved in more than their share of violence is teaching -- cause there is a damn good chance that wht they are teaching ISN'T self-defense. I will give you guys a major point that we stress in all our WSD seminars, self-defense and MA programs..."Self-defense isn't about winning, it's about not getting hurt." Keep this in mind because the desire to win or to "teach someone a lesson" is one of the biggest causes of a situation to escalate out of self-defense and into a fight. In my book, self-defense is easy to teach to "civilians." Basically it boils down to this attitude "You are a nice person, you do not have the skills, equipment mindset and visciousness that it takes to win in a long term engagement with "bears." Therefore, your best chances for survival are a) do not provoke them and b) to get out of there" If they still attack, here are a couple of tricks that you can use to help you survive long enough to escape. In other words, basic hiking safety that works with their level. How do you fight bears? Well now that's a different story altogether. And here is where we get into all kinds of other complications like pride, strong emotion and winning. Can it be done. Yes, but you need a radically different mindset, equipment and skillset than "self-defense." Unfortunately, WAY too many programs that claim to be teaching self-defense are actually trying to teach fighting bears. Here is where you get the argument that someone who hasn't been there can or can't teach. The problem with most of these arguements is that people don't realize you aren't talking self-defense anymore. I got an email from a kid the other day who attested to loving to streetfight. As he said he is in it for the glory and hopes to die in an alley. Yes, people like this exist. Why do you think there are fight clubs and soccer hooligans? Thing is there are also gang members and serial killers out there too. And if you step into this kind of world, you have to have a totally different mindset to make it out there. The funny thing about it is is how often people who are actively engaging in fighting are absolutely convinced that what they are doing is self-defense. I don't just mean people like that idiot kid, I mean people who have found themselves in a confrontation with someone that has escalated. Their actions are actually escalating and/or encouraging the problem, because they aren't really trying to end it, they often are trying to win and/or come out a head. The major problem with this approach is that whatever level you are willing to "stoop to" might not be same one that he is willing to go. Fighting is not something that you can engage in and then say "hey, this is too intense. I don't want to play anymore" Bottomline, the need to win, motivates a large number of violent people to the point of killing someone in order to win. People get pig headed about winning. And what they fail to realize is that if you choose to engage with someone, you really have to be careful about being driven to "win" -- for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is that you have basically just said to a like-minded person "let's play." You have unwittingly agreed to a game that you don't know the rules or the limits of. A game you might not survive, because no matter how much you think you have stacked the deck by knowing some kind of martial arts, he's stacked the deck too. This is why so many "fighters" die like flies. It is a stupid and dangerous game. Where not only is everyone cheating, but they are often busy seeking recognition. Sometimes by advertising how tough they are, other times by trying to "teach someone a lesson." Seeking recognition is a dangerous approach, one that often leads to fighting. And using your example, the guy who has many scars, teaching what he calls "self-defense" the line out of the Magnificant Seven come to mind. "He is tough, look at all of those scars" "The man we want is the one who gave him those scars" Finally we come to bear hunting. Since I don't hunt for pleasure, I look at hunting as a need. Either you need it for food or you need to put down a dangerous animal. There is nothing fair about this kind of hunting. It's purpose is to do a job. The deck is so stacked that the victim doesn't have a chance. And there is all kinds of tactics, tricks, equipment, skills and most definately NOT a civilian mindset. If you're not approaching this idea from the standpoint that the sucker is down and out immediately, then you are going to get nailed, because bears are too damn dangerous to be sloppy when you hunt them. Now comes the bad news, this hunting attitude is usually held by two main groups, cops and robbers. The cop to get the criminal who is hunting people and the criminal who preys on people. The reason that awareness and avoidance is so important is that John Q Public just doesn't have what it takes to survive being targeted by a serious hunter. That's because the hunter is already in that mindset and everything is set up to pull the trigger. That is why it is so effective, to survive you need to be able to make a quantum leap and immediately deploy massive firepower. That is just too big of a shift for most people to make. Do you guys honestly think that you would be able to go from 0 - 120 mph if you came around a blind corner and had someone try to drive a knife in your chest? And do it without getting a sucking chest wound? I did it. But at the time I was deeply immersed in the "Life" so I was always at tac-alert anyway. Would I be able to do it now that I am older, mellower and more civilized? I don't know. I kind of doubt it. But that is the hunter mindset. It ain't no game and you don't let your quarry have the slightest chance. Now the last two categories fighting/hunting, I don't think that any one person or system covers all the complications that you will find there. In fact, when you get there you tend to have to look for "parts" of the equation. I don't expect a lawyer to be able to tell me how to snap someone's neck. But when it comes to the legal repercussions of that action, I suren' hell am going to take his word over that of a guru in some unbeatable fighting system. What's more, I definately don't care that the attorney has "never been there" The information that he provides is critical for me developing a sucessful strategy. Sucess being defined in coming out ahead on many different fronts. I think the main problem that we face when approaching this subject is that too many people want it to be just about one thing. "All I need to know I learned from my guru" Well kids, I hate to tell you this, but this ain't kintergarden. This is real life. And real life is complicated" and multi-leveled. What's worse, it requires work. That means beyond just nodding your head and saying, "yeah, it is complicated and then going back to a kintegarden outlook. And I would have to say that the first step in figuring out what you need is to really take a look around you and see what level you normally exist at and what you realistically need to keep from getting eaten by a bear. THEN start looking for a program that suits your needs. M --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest