Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:05:03 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #124 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Al's comments on?? (Q) 2. Re: Complete Art (Anthony C) 3. Here I Go Again (al sardinas) 4. Self-defence (Ollie Batts) 5. RE: Here I Go Again (steve kohn) 6. Re: Here I Go Again (Ray Terry) 7. school owners (gordon walker) 8. INTENT and Simulated Combat (jay de leon) 9. Re: Letter from Mr. Blaise Loong (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:11:48 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Q To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Al's comments on?? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net All Wrote: Dr. Fung, based on what you wrote my new comments are that just because something is new does not necessarily make it effective. Is it not conceivable that an art that is over 300 years old have an answer to an art that is only 10 years old? Finally, when it comes down to it, in spite of a million new techniques, an opponent will have only two hands and two feet that one will have to contend with. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis Al, First my comments on completeness are generic and not intended to specifically finger "you" although it was your original quote. No one art/man's teaching can make you complete. IMHO, if the art is really good at some point in time the art will lead you to challenge its limits and explore. The real goal of every dedicated father, every teacher is for his student to eclipse the teachings. Anyone who would limit you has another agenda that is not in your best interest. You may think your father or your teacher has all the answers and they do for a while. Later as you become more advanced you find that the best thing your teacher can do for you is guide your path. It takes time to get to that level. Anyway, I pose to you that There really is no "300"year old art. You see everytime a guy touches the art there is personality injected in it that changes the art. Martial arts is "arts" not math. The only thing that does not change is physics and math. 300 years from now 2+2 still equals 4. Newtonian mechanics will still work in the macroscopic world. I contend that every 300 year old art is really is no more "old" than the guy promoting it. Now that is blasphamous! That said, the "new" 10 year old art is really not 10 either. It is a compliation/ bastardization whatever of someone's distillation of a 300 year old art which is really just as old as the guy doing it. Furthermore, the art only has the effectiveness of that "time" the guy has spent in that art mixed in with that person's "natural god given talents". That is why a blackbelt can still get beat by J-random drunk at the bar whose timing of swinging a beerbottle is just as good as when he swings a baseball bat on the field. And when I say new I mean "new" to you. Not new art. There is no new art just what you have not seen. Since the first fight "IT" has been done. What we do everyday when we train is reinvent the wheel and if we get good enough our instructors allow us to teach the next group to reinvent the wheel again. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 04:49:48 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony C Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Complete Art To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net One point worth noting is that an individual will most likely find a "comprehensive" art more readily than a "complete" one as this implies two totally different things. The most important point though is that what might be a "comprehensive" defensive art to one person might not be complete to another for everyone's needs vary. So one must analyze one's needs or those of anyone we are helping before selecting the necessary art(s) and equipment for self defense. Mike Casto wrote:I don't like the word "complete" from the get go for the very reasons you state. I think some systems are more well-rounded than others. But that doesn't necessarily make them better. It'd be like saying that a general practitioner is better than a cardiologist because he's more well-rounded - but if your heart's what's giving you problems you'll take the cardiologist every time. I think a fighter needs to be relatively well-rounded. But a system can be very concentrated and focused on one aspect and be completely viable. Personally, I'm glad there are specialized arts. Because while I prefer to be well-rounded, when I want to gain more depth in an area, I seek out a person or system that specializes in that area. Even if I can trash the guy in a fight, he's better in his area than I am so I pay my dues (in whatever form is required), slough my ego, and train to improve that aspect of my overall game. And I think it's natural to specialize. We each have certain aspects of our training that suit us better than other aspects. We will tend to gravitate to these and specialize in them. It takes quite a bit of effort to keep developing our weaker areas while maintaining/improving our stronger areas in an effort to be well-rounded. Personally, I think it's a worthwhile endeavor - but I don't fault people/systems who specialize and I'm glad they're out there to give me pointers when I'm trying to polish up that area of my work. Mike > Hi Folks, > > Who here doesnt think the notion of a "complete art" is totally > ridiculous? Some arts may be closer to being complete than others, but no > one art can do it all. If its "complete", that implies that it has an > end. If it has an end, it is a system and not an art. No true artist is > ever satisfied with his work and always strives to grow within his art. > If the so-called "art" is to grow, its founder can never become > complacent. If he does, his art dies. Systems catalogue techniques while > art grows through conceptual understanding. Art has no end, a technical > catalogue does. > > Best, > > Steve Kohn > >>From: "al sardinas" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: >>Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Re: Complete Art >Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:31:58 > -0500 > >Ray you wrote: "A problem, of course, with the "complete" art > approach is >that it will be >so vast that one would never be able to > attain any significant level of >expertise in even a subset of its > elements. Concepts are great, but will >concepts keep you from being > submitted by a hooker? (No, not that kind > of hooker, > Rocky. :)..... But the problem is again, how does one >continue to > practice kicking, empty hands/elbows, standup grappling, ground >>grappling, weapons (ALL types), etc, etc (see "We Have That, Too" (TM)) > and >be able to roll with a BJJer, flow with an eskrimador, kick with a > muay thai >or TKDer, stay inside with a wing chun-er, grapple with a > hapkido-er, >etc..... >It is easy to be a jack of all, but difficult to > be a master of even one." > >I agree with everything you wrote to a > point. Personally, due to age, body >size and other factors I know that I > will never to be able to attain a >significant level of expertise in the > vast arena of the Garimot System. That >is why I concentrate on mastering > the basics. Through these basics I master >the concepts. Through these > concepts I develop the mind. And ultimately it >is the mind that will > determine how well you succeed regardless of what or >who is the > opponent. > >To the question of how one can continue to practice and be > able to roll, >flow, kick and grapple, etc. the answer is not many. But I > do know of one >person who can do all that and more. He is not a master > of one but a master >of many. He is my instructor Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" > Baet. His background is >martial arts, his future is martial arts. What > he has to offer is available >for everyone to explore now. Times have > changed, Guro's arms are open now. >Take advantage. > >Respectfully, >Al > Sardinas >Student of Garimot System of Arnis >>_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing > list, 1800 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright > 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers > apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Find a broadband plan that fits. Great local deals on high-speed Internet > access. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "al sardinas" To: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:16:07 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Here I Go Again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve, your statement of "Who here doesnt think the notion of a "complete art" is totally ridiculous?" could be considered a direct attack on me but I'm going to ignore it.Since I'm getting tired of stating what I know is true I'm going to give you a quick analogy that I hope you with all your wisdom will understand. Analogy: FMA System A : Garimot System :: Parker, PA Community College : _________ FMA System A is to Parker, Pa Community College as Garimot System is to "Blank" Answer: FMA System A is to Parker, Pa Community College as Garimot System is to Harvard University Explanation: I don't know if a community college exists in Parker, PA but I used Parker, Pa because it is supposed to be the smallest city in the United States. In a community college you have opportunites to learn many things but in a college you will have more choices on more subjects and in a university there will be more choices, more subjects than in a regular college. Rarely if not never does a student of Harvard University have to go to an institution like Parker, PA Community College to learn an advanced subject like high energy particle physics. So I hope this closes the door on why "for me" that the Garimot System is a complete system. I understand some instructors out there were never afforded the opportunity to learn as much as my instructor did and may be jealous or think that no system exists that is very comprehensive but again I welcome all to explore all the branches of Garimot rather than condemn it due to a lack of experience. Let this subject rest. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 19:53:36 +0000 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Self-defence Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The best form of self-defence is not to be there! It's not 'about fighting'... it's about 'not fighting', by which I mean not being in a position where you need or have to. When I'm teaching self-defence I usually ask those present if anyone would like to step forward and stand toe-to-toe with a Tiger, if one should just happen to pop its head around the door. I ask them if they think the swift kick in the bollocks, punch in the jaw, eye-jab or bite, is likely to work for them in such a situation. A human's strongest weapon is his/her brain! Why would someone stand willingly, toe-to-toe, with an unknown assailant if the option to escape is there for them to take? In a potentially dangerous situation, forget your ego, and your pride. After all, doesn't that come just before a fall? Pugil --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "steve kohn" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Here I Go Again Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:00:01 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Al, "You with all your wisdom"?. Do I have less wisdom than you because our opinions differ? Sure seems that way. For someone who gave me the benefit of the doubt on what you saw as a direct attack (which it actually wasnt. i just chose to hit "reply" rather than type the address.) you sure chose to attack my intellect. Additionally, if you are stating that "what you know is true", what is the point of posting it here?Are you looking for a discussion or advertising time? My original assertion regarding this topic remains. I meant it for martial arts in general, not yours in particular.   -Steve Kohn   >From: "al sardinas" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [Eskrima] Here I Go Again >Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:16:07 -0500 > >Steve, your statement of "Who here doesnt think the notion of a "complete >art" is totally >ridiculous?" could be considered a direct attack on me but I'm going to >ignore it.Since I'm getting tired of stating what I know is true I'm going >to give you a quick analogy that I hope you with all your wisdom will >understand. > >Analogy: >FMA System A : Garimot System :: Parker, PA Community College : _________ >FMA System A is to Parker, Pa Community College as Garimot System is to >"Blank" >Answer: >FMA System A is to Parker, Pa Community College as Garimot System is to >Harvard University >Explanation: >I don't know if a community college exists in Parker, PA but I used Parker, >Pa because it is supposed to be the smallest city in the United States. In a >community college you have opportunites to learn many things but in a >college you will have more choices on more subjects and in a university >there will be more choices, more subjects than in a regular college. Rarely >if not never does a student of Harvard University have to go to  an >institution like Parker, PA Community College to learn an advanced subject >like high energy particle physics. > >So I hope this closes the door on why "for me" that the Garimot System is a >complete system. I understand some instructors out there were never afforded >the opportunity to learn as much as my instructor did and may be jealous or >think that no system exists that is very comprehensive but again I welcome >all to explore all the branches of Garimot rather than condemn it due to a >lack of experience. > >Let this subject rest. >Respectfully, >Al Sardinas >Student of Garimot System of Arnis >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list,  1800 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get tax tips, tools and access to IRS forms – all in one place at MSN Money! --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Here I Go Again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 13:39:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > ... I understand some instructors out there were never afforded > the opportunity to learn as much as my instructor did and may be jealous or > think that no system exists that is very comprehensive but again I welcome > all to explore all the branches of Garimot rather than condemn it due to a > lack of experience. > > Let this subject rest. Al, You are simply digging yourself into a deeper hole. Better to let it go as a simple difference of opinion instead of something "you know" or because of jealousy. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 17:38:19 -0500 (EST) From: gordon walker To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] school owners Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, I think I tried asking this once before, but I would like to get some information from others who have opened a facility. I have an opportunity to receive funding for a business and since "this" (escrima digesting) is the only thing I kinda know how to do, I figure it makes sense to make a biziness out of it. Id welcome any ideas as to what to avoid, what to seek out, info on affiliations I might be interested in, etc etc. My current idea is to have an open martial training area, and devote the majority of space to a weight training/conditioning center. I have a friend that does massage that would like to operate out of the facility and another that would like to have kung fu/taichi classes there. Anyhoo. Please feel free to send info to me via my private email account, as this might not be worthy of airtime on the digest. Gumagalang, Gord P.S. I keep forgetting to get that recipe for Rocky. Sorry Rocky. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "jay de leon" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: theclassic33@hotmail.com Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 22:52:18 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] INTENT and Simulated Combat Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "You can't simulate real combat, you can make it realistic but unless someone at the other end with a knife, bare handed..whatever has the INTENT to kill you, it is just a simulation." Agree. One of the things you cannot replicate in simulated combat is the "viciousness" of an attack, which is the manifestation of INTENT. And on top of that, how do you define "realistic" training (isn't this an oxymoron?) There was a time I had enough students technically skilled and tough (and dumb?) enough to fool around with "realistic" training. We found out that the following variables came into play with "realistic" training: speed and power - 100%? no whistling sound with the sticks? designation of targets - include head and groin shots? use of protective equipment - cup, mouthpiece, headgear? type of training weapons or eqpt - padded vs. live stick? wimpy stick vs. heavy duty stick? open hand vs. fists? boxing gloves vs. bag gloves? number of participants - most of our scenarios involved multiple attackers type of techniques - include choke, bone-breaking, etc.? environmental considerations - Is it OK to run to the next county if the opportunity presented itself? Can you use improvised weapons, e.g., pick up a rock, etc. (Our venues included a long street alley, a park in a condo complex and a closed garage.) The offshoot was, the principle of compensating variables always came into play. For example, if we were using live sticks and headshots were allowed, the guys wore mouthpieces and a headgear with protective face plate. In other words, it was never complete "simulation." And of course, the INTENT (to kill, maim or even hurt) was just not there. The INTENT was to train. And most of the time, the DBMA spirit prevailed--"friends afterwards." But we learned many valuable lessons during these foolhardy exercises--the fluff techniques disappeared; high kicks (higher than a shin kick) meant meeting the asphalt; it was much better to move, evade, hit and run, rather than meet an attack head-on; you had to flow (stumble, stagger) into different ranges in split seconds, etc. We found simulated combat chaotic, unpredictable, scary and yes, exhilarating, but only because it was simulated. Jay de Leon _________________________________________________________________ Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:44:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Letter from Mr. Blaise Loong Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Back on the topic of Mr. Loong... > > I just received a snailmail from Blaise Loong w/several of his DVDs enclosed. > > What I found most refreshing was the following: > > "Enclosed for your perusal are a few of my 'visual notes' dvds. Please > check them out when you have some time. Thanks. If you think my > stuff may be beneficial to your readers, please let them know" > > "I'm just a guy -- not some Grandmaster, Master, Datu or Guru. Just one > of the countless thousands of FMA practitioners who sincerely study and > practice hard in the garages and backyards all over the world." > > ... > > Given my up-coming travel I won't be able to quickly review all the material > Blaise sent, but I will do so asap and post what I see to the list. But > I can already tell that it comes from a person not all that hung up on > himself. Very refreshing... Well... I finally had a chance to review the 5 dvds that I was sent by Mr. Loong. Just for completeness I also asked two other FMAists to review a subset of them so that we could compare and contrast views. My personal opinion was not disclosed prior to asking them to take a look. After receiving the above letter from Mr. Loong I was really looking forward to watching the dvds. Even tho I was headed out of town to a seminar I immediately sat down to watch a few of the videos as soon as they arrived. I was honestly excited, expecting to see some excellent FMA. Unfortunately that was not the case. The production quality bothered one of the friends, but I personally wasn't concerned about that aspect. They weren't produced in a professional studio, but in many ways that was refreshing. As Mr. Loong put it, these were "visual notes", so I wasn't surprised by their almost home video nature. It made them seem somehow more friendly and accessible. But I was a bit disappointed at the quality of eskrima I witnessed. I expected to see crisp footwork, good use and placement of the live hand, as well as good body mechanics, movement, basic motion and flow. IMHO all these elements could have been better demonstrated. Live/sharp steel was used and I believe that actually detracted from some of the videos. Because sharp (and heavy?) bolos were in use it was rather obvious that safety was a prime issue, just as it should be. However, as a result, the bolos were employed in a rather stilted fashion. Just as you do when you're afraid of making contact with your partner. Using real steel is fine, we actually enjoy it (a little). But when making a video it seems to this viewer that one should demonstrate proper body mechanics, especially in basic weapon handling and movement. To get around this problem I recommend using training blades for at least portions of the video production so that exceptional blade handling is shown. As previously mentioned the videos were also viewed by two others. I wanted to see if I was just missing something... They had very similar concerns. The good part... Mr. Loong clearly has a ton of potential. I know from personal experience that it is not easy to make a good video. It is frequently a rather humbling experience watching yourself teach or perform. Also, these were labeled as "visual notes". To me that means they were not necessarily intended to be instructional videos. I can clearly see their value as notes for Mr. Loong, his training partners and students as a way to preserve material for future reference. In closing, thanks to Mr. Loong for putting it on the line and asking for the material to be publicly reviewed. That clearly shows a willingness to seek feedback and incorporate same in future video productions. How many of us are willing to take such a chance? The dvds are in the return mail to Mr. Loong. Thanks for the opportunity. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest