Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:44:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #126 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Complete Art vs Complete System? (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. Self Defense??without fighting. (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. I just have to run faster than you (Marc Denny) 4. Awesome Filipino Martial Arts Workshop in Massachusetts!!! (guro_jason@eemaworld.com) 5. Self-Defence (Ollie Batts) 6. flow again (Dale) 7. Thank You All (al sardinas) 8. Ray Floro Seminar Review (Marc Scott) 9. PCC vs. Harvard (Roan Grimm) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 05:58:49 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Complete Art vs Complete System? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, I cannot hold myself not to post one last time to clarifies thing up on the topic of the "Complete arts" vs. Complete System. The question has been raised and the answer has been given over and over, but seems the disagreement still there. Somewhere both side is not seeing the points of each other side. Well, let me see, if I can help to answer the missing link to find agreement to this topics. I agree to all of the practitioner that raised the point that no arts is complete art, if we are talking the progression of the one practitioner of the art. But if we are talking an art itself, I think is pretty much the art is complete art, only the practitioner cannot complete the art, like you said, need a lifetime to complete the arts, meaning there is a complete art you need to spend your whole life to find it. Now, let's go back, I am on the side that there is nobody, not even my father, my grandfather, not even Bruce Lee or your grandmaster has the answer to all of the questioned we have in this world. You said it, that we need to find the answer to ourselves. Like Mike Casto said, if he need to find something to learn from a particular art he goes to specialist of that particular art, which I agree personally. Dr. Carltons, Steve Kohn, and Al I believed that both of you are talking two different fruits. One is talking Apple and the other one is oranges. There both fruit but each one of them has different taste and different texture, and form. If understand Dr. Carltons and other is talking a particular art that no one can complete the arts, which is easy to agree. I am the first one to give you the thumbs up to his post, and Mike raised a good point too to the topic. Meanwhile Al is talking the school whom offer a variety of choices of arts (i.e., art of single stick, double stick, long pole, knife, empty hand arts form, not limited to punching, kicking, standing and ground control, bone breaking, trapping, natural healing, etc.) A system that not particularly offered only stick art, knife art, kicking art, boxing art, wrestling/grappling art that for Al's it is a complete system or one stop school. School that specialized on each particular art theory and practices. Complete art is impossible to attained completely, but the complete system is easy to find understand the theory and practices. You may agree or disagree but that what Al's is to believed that he found the Complete system of fighting arts. He's has been a MA crazed of all styles even FMA but he never found the complete system that offer almost all. I understand to some people has a problem of practicing multiple art, but to be well rounded fighter, you need to learn all aspect of fighting. A lot people say to defeat the Grappler, don't fight them in grappling, and to defeat stickfighter, don't fight them to stick fight, etc. But my instructors has taught us to defend yourself from the Grappler you should know there games, to defeat a stickfighter is to learn his games, then find the weak side and use it against him/her. Well, I hope I clear the disagreement because both of you are talking different topic. Complete art vs. Complete system Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International World Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA But hey if your system is don't have this particular art, I agree to seek one to other system or specialist. Cross training is not bad at all, impact is the best way to go if you will learn MA to used it in any weather. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 06:28:30 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Self Defense??without fighting. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Olli Batt wrote: > The best form of self-defence is not to be there! > > It's not 'about fighting'... it's about 'not fighting', by which I mean not > being in a position where you need or have to. > > When I'm teaching self-defence I usually ask those present if anyone would > like to step forward and stand toe-to-toe with a Tiger, if one should just > happen to pop its head around the door. I ask them if they think the swift > kick in the bollocks, punch in the jaw, eye-jab or bite, is likely to work > for them in such a situation. A human's strongest weapon is his/her brain! > > Ollie, First off I don't disagree with you, I think I just need to point it out a little misconception of your self defense. I agree to the point to avoid any confrontation, not to fight to avoid any bad luck fights. This is only one type of scenario you are pointing it out. In general point of self protection, Self Defense is a defensive act to a scenario that you and someone's life is in danger. To prevent a fight, to prevent of being attack, to prevent of using your knowledge to hurt someone is not a self defense. This is Pre-self defense act, before you become the target don't give them the motive to be a target. If you talk self defense, one way or another you need to show this people "how to" techniques. How to get away from a mugger? How to get away from attacker, etc. Self-defense applied only when you being attack, to be attack you need to be there and act your defensive act against attacker. Whatever techniques you might want to used. Is not bad to teach our people not to go in some places that you know your life will be in danger. But hey "what if" the assailant come to your own home, and hurts you and your family, are you going to live them behind just for you to be in the safe. Is that good self defense? Probably to the Police and other Law enforcer is a good move, but hey if my family is involve, I rather die with them that I am fighting rather than watch them die while I am running. That why I am learning a self defense move and techniques to use it when time I need them to be used. If I am by myself, I would agree, if I see someone break in to my house and I don't know what he has, if he has weapon or not, and I am by myself? I think I would suggest to my self scapes and call the Police. Again this is only one scenario of self defense. You said it brain is the strongest weapon in your body then used it. Just my own opinion of Self Defense, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 04:11:25 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] I just have to run faster than you Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Pugil wrote: > The best form of self-defence is not to be there! > > It's not 'about fighting'... it's about 'not fighting', by which I mean not > being in a position where you need or have to. , , , > > Why would someone stand willingly, toe-to-toe, with an unknown assailant if > the option to escape is there for them to take? In a potentially dangerous > situation, forget your ego, and your pride. After all, doesn't that come > just before a fall? > > Pugil The answer to this question reminds me of a political joke currently making the rounds about three men in Africa, each of a different nationality. When a lion comes along, one man suggests that since none of them can outrun the lion that they work together to fend off the lion. The second man agrees. The third man runs away saying "Hey! I just have to run faster than one of you!" Pugil, your point is fine as far as it goes-- assuming you CAN outrun the problem or other targets of opportunity for the problem-- but sometimes those other targets of opportunity are people you might wish to defend-- your woman, your children, or simply good people worthy of being helped and you do so simply because of who you are. Woof, Crafty PS: Part Two of the political joke has two men of different nationalities going diving in shark infested waters. One man straps on a knife with a 2" blade. "That won't stop a shark!" says Man One. "I know that. Its to nick you if a shark comes." says Man Two --__--__-- Message: 4 From: To: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:36:59 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Awesome Filipino Martial Arts Workshop in Massachusetts!!! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings All~ I am thrilled to announce that my instructor, Master Arnulfo "Dong" Cuesta will be at EEMA Fitness & Martial Arts this Saturday from 10am - 3pm. teaching a Doce Pares Eskrima Workshop. He is by far one of the finest martial artists I've ever had the pleasure to meet and train with. If you are looking for the opportunity to push yourself to "the next level", than this is it! Master Cuesta will be covering Single Stick, Espada y Daga, Knife Defense, and Full Contact Stick Fighting!!! I still have a few spaces left... Cost for the workshop is $75. If you'd like for me to reserve a space, please respond immediately! For more information on Master Arnulfo "Dong" Cuesta you can check out the following sites: www.doceparesusa.com www.doceparesinternational.com Respectfully, Guro Jason M. Silverman EEMA Fitness & Martial Arts 435 Columbian Street S. Weymouth, Ma 02190 www.eemaworld.com (781) 335-0800 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:33:14 +0000 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Self-Defence Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Who the hell said anything about hesitating and holding back? If you re-read what I wrote Todd you will see that I said "...if the option to escape is there for you to take..." I have no problem teaching women how to fight back effectively in situations where there is little or no other choice. I also drum into them that they will need to use 'Speed + Aggression (what you might also call a resolutely determined response) + Surprise' if they are to be effective. I also use the analogies of 'Keep It Simple Sarah', and 'Value Yourself More Than Your Attacker'. I use several others too, but I'll not go into those right now! Whilst many male martial arts instructors, in the peak of fitness, strength and conditioning, think they know what's best for the average woman in all situations, these men should also look into the subject of who poses the greatest threat to women in our so-called civilised societies - such as the US and UK - in the first place. It is a fact that when most women are attacked, it will be by someone they already know. When they are killed in a violent situation it is more likely to be by a partner - previous or present - (50+% UK & 60+% USA) than by a stranger jumping out from behind a hedge. As De Becker wrote in his book 'The Gift of Fear', "...if a jumbo jet crashed into a mountain killing everyone on board, and if that happened every month, month in and month out, the number of people killed still wouldn't equal [keep up with] the number of women murdered by their husbands and boyfriends..." De Becker also claims that women are killed by stalking partners at the rate of about one every two hours. And I believe that he is talking about in America alone. What this means is that women should perhaps firstly look at the subject of 'personal relationships', if they wish to avoid violence and aggression in their lives. As I say to women on my courses, 'The average man sees himself either as a protector of women, or a potential dominator!' Men are also guilty of doing women down at every turn - even to the point of telling them how they should, or should not, defend themselves. You see, men always know best - right? Pugil >Why would someone stand willingly, toe-to-toe, with an unknown >assailant if the option to escape is there for them to take? In a >potentially dangerous situation, forget your ego, and your pride. After >all, doesn't that come just before a fall? How about because if you don't someone will hold you down and jam his penis into you without your permission? And if you hesitate for an instant or hold back out of compassion or inhibition even a little you might not get that chance to escape. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Dale" To: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 15:35:31 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] flow again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Y'all, I don't want to open a can of worms again, but I just wanted to show you a great example of "flow". Notice the ambidexterity and simultaneous use of hands and feet. It doesn't get any better. http://www.kalieskrima.com/noflow.mpeg See you in the sticks, Dale --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "al sardinas" To: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 09:44:37 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Thank You All Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dr. Fung, Some good comments in your last email. I particularily agree with "IMHO, if the art is really good at some point in time the art will lead you to challenge its limits and explore." That is what I have been trying to do over the last couple of years You also wrote: "No one art/man's teaching can make you complete." Again, I agree with you 100 %. In all my writings I never wrote that the art I study will make me or any other martial artist complete. Anthony C, Good email worth repeating - "One point worth noting is that an individual will most likely find a "comprehensive" art more readily than a "complete" one as this implies two totally different things. The most important point though is that what might be a "comprehensive" defensive art to one person might not be complete to another for everyone's needs vary. So one must analyze one's needs or those of anyone we are helping before selecting the necessary art(s) and equipment for self defense." Using the point Anthony made, I thought I made it clear that the art "for me" was complete Steve, You wrote "Do I have less wisdom than you because our opinions differ?" My answer is I really don't know. But when you wrote ""Who here doesnt think the notion of a "complete art" is totally ridiculous?" it implies that you are a man of great wisdom because you know what every member thinks. Also you wrote "Are you looking for a discussion or advertising time?" I'm with you, I'm looking for discussion. Unfortunately, everytime I was drawn back into the discussion I was using my system as the example and this could easily be perceived as a commercial. Dan Anderson, You wrote "I think as long as a system includes the different types of fight scenarios, it can offer to be a complete system. As to the "best 'complete system,'" hoo boy, that is certainly one for contention. Obviously, the more experienced the instructor, the greater number of scenarios that instructor can present. After that, it is mostly opinion based and better left to hypotheticals than actual fact." Thanks Dan for your perspective. It's good to read a view that is similar if not equal to one's own. John Fontanilla, Thank you very much for your public support.Unfortunately, in the future I recommend you make your support known in private. No sense in having two people burned at the stake. Thanks again!! Ray, You wrote "You are simply digging yourself into a deeper hole." You could be right, I could be using a shovel to dig myself a deep hole. But like the words in a song titled "Living Life Upside Down" I could be using all that dirt I'm displacing to build myself a mountain. But to appease the masses I will go along with a simple difference of opinion. BTW Ray , in your email "Re: Letter from Mr. Blaise Loong" , you wrote "Just for completeness I also asked two other FMAists to review a subset of them so that we could compare and contrast views". Based on my recent experience, you have to be careful when you use the word completeness. LOL. Ollie Batts/Pugil you wrote "The best form of self-defence is not to be there! It's not 'about fighting'... it's about 'not fighting', by which I mean not being in a position where you need or have to." I'm going to follow your advice and let the subject rest even if others do not. Time to regenerate. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis (also a student of Henrick Ibsen) --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:12:44 -0800 (PST) From: Marc Scott To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Ray Floro Seminar Review Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Before I begin let me say I am a students of Ray's so I will try to be as unbiased as possible, though it may prove hard. This is the second time I have had a seminar with ray and the first time I hosted a seminar so nerves were at an all time high. There were a lot of obstacles before the seminar not the least of which was the fact that Ray was in the hospital with severe food poisoning less than five hours before the seminar started, now on to the good stuff... Ray held a two day seminar at a local gym in Bellflower (thanks to Jerry at Centerline Gym, if you haven't seen Jerry's unarmed gainst blade tape Redzone do so now). The first day covered Ray's unique way of fighting with the knife. Ray comes from a fencing background and it clearly showed as he demonstarted grips, footwork and principles which all took advantage of fencing's principles along with those of Ilustrisimo. Those of you who have seen Ray have experienced the CANNON, Ray's explosive entries which leave you scratching you head and wondering just how you got hit so damn hard, well Ray took the time to break it down so that most of the participants had a pretty good cannon going early on. This explosive entry is the hallmark of Ray's style in my mind, it is also tactically a mich better idea than getting invovled in a draw out give and take with a knife. Ray also worked on the reverse grip which is the way he holds the knife and espouses as a grip, while some were doubtful as to reach of this method he quickly showed just how little reach you lose and how much advantage the grip gives you. What was truly amazing was just how much people were able to integrate Ray's material immediately. Ray is certainly running against the grain of FMA, no hubud("it'll get you killed" is the phrase often heard), no alive hand(Ray teaches largo mano and the alive hand does little to help), as well as no triangular footwork("just walk!). The second day of the seminar dealt with blunt weapon against blade, Ray demonstrated the two handed approach as well as the snooker game with sticks which knocked the opponents heads back like pez dispensers. Ray also felt good enough enough to spar, what was truly amazing was not just how he sparred bu how he called out what he was going to just before he did it, truly oustanding. We also worked on flexible weapons against blade, these techniques are a paired down version of sarong techniques that in my opinion at least are a more realistic way to train. I had given up on FMA for a long time until I met Ray and he renewed my faith. He is without a doubt the most open and innovative instructor I have met and trained with. Special thanks to Ray for his training and for sharing with us, also especially for bringing 20 year old video of Tatang Ilustrisimo training others in Luneta Parc in Manilla, great to see. And thanks to TG for sharing his thoughts on law enforcement training and the proper role of knife work in tactics, also to Mike W. for all his help during the seminar and years of trainig. Of course words will never do when describing Ray's style so if he is in your area take a seminar. One thing you may in the future hear the term Kalis Escrima thrown about, that is the term we are using to describe Ray's style, Kalis: from the word for sword, and Escrima: to mean fencing, hence Sword Fencing, "Kalis Escrima" this best describes exactly what ray does, and gives respect to Tatang Ilustrisimo and takes into account the western aspects of What Ray teaches. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Roan Grimm" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 07:07:18 -1000 Subject: [Eskrima] PCC vs. Harvard Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello everyone, Al Sardinas wrote: <<>> I'm not debating whether or not the Garimot system is complete or not, I have absolutely ZERO experience with it, but reading the above analogy caused me to think of something. While it's true that a Harvard student will rarely need to go to "Parker CC" to learn an advanced subject like high energy particle physics, said student will likely be turning over their car to a graduate of PCC for repairs in a garage because Harvard, MIT, etc. rarely offer such real world subjects as "Auto Maintenance 101". However, CCs usually do offer such real world subjects, and usually do a damn fine job of turning out excellent mechanics, electricians, refrigeration/AC techs, welders, etc. So along the lines of YOUR analogy, Harvard DOES NOT offer a COMPLETE education. It excels in teaching certain subjects while other subjects are missing. As with all my "thinking out loud", I'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to get everyone's thinking juices flowing. Peace, respect and an open mind. Aloha, Roan Kalani Grimm "And before us animosity will stand and decree That we speak not of love only blasphemy And in the distance, 6 others will curse me But that’s alright, (that’s alright) 4 I will watch them fall(1,2,3,4,5,6,7)." --The artist currently known as Prince -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest