Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:52:02 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #128 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: "Complete" arts, unbeatable instructors, and we-have-that-too (Ray Terry) 2. RE: rolling with the black belts (Patrick Davies) 3. Re: Self-defence (Patrick Davies) 4. RE: knife draw (Patrick Davies) 5. Grand Master Bobby Taboada Coming To MD (Sam Bell Jr) 6. We are Devo? (Marc Denny) 7. Re: re: complete system and CSE (excalibur921@ctnet.net) 8. Sword incident in England (Marc Macyoung) 9. Re: GM Vincent Cabales (Kes41355@aol.com) 10. Jay Saguisabal's "complete" arts, unbeatable instructors... (jay de leon) 11. Blaise Loong > Ray's Review (ulfhead@integrity.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] "Complete" arts, unbeatable instructors, and we-have-that-too To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 21:54:56 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I know it's a little late, but... > > What others may perceive as arrogance or boasting, through a Filipino guro, > it is a sign of confidence. Challenges and rivalries are very common, and > because of them, FMA experts have to stay on their toes. ... This is not at all unique to the FMAs. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:47:38 -0000 From: "Patrick Davies" To: Subject: [Eskrima] RE: rolling with the black belts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From the completeness thread, out of interest, and not a dig in any way, did Al ever roll with the BJJ black belts and how did he cope that is of relevance - especially to him. Personally, rolling with BJJ black belts, I get beat pretty quickly. Pat Davies --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:09:42 -0000 From: "Patrick Davies" To: "eskrima digest" Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Self-defence Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net <> Without access to the facts and working off memory, I think your point is slightly mistaken. The reason for the extent of the punishment was due to the fact that the samurai swordsman went and hunted down the offenders. Under Scottish Law - which is different from Welsh and English law - it is considered as two separate incidents. Now you and I were not party to the actual evidence and our knowledge is based on sensationalist news reporting that we all know too well doesn't always relate well with the facts. But given that the evidence was most likely heard in front of a jury who concluded that the man was guilty it would be a fair assumption to assume that there was more to this that maybe didn't get included in the media reports. That could be because the media was trying to promote an agenda of its own liking - who knows. : ) Its almost as silly as letting a well known performance artist buy his way out of child abuse accusations and allow him free access to children! Allah on a bungee cord! How crazy can the US courts get? ; ) Nothings perfect but are we happy to allow the urban myth to support our theories? Pat Davies --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:27:41 -0000 From: "Patrick Davies" To: "eskrima digest" Subject: [Eskrima] RE: knife draw Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net One of the problems ive had with my favourite folder the gunting is where do - sorry I mean would* - I holster it? [* legal issue] I tend to wear sweats a lot and the gunting is a bit to heavy for the front and can sag with the material and noticeably uncomfortable when sitting.. If I put it behind against the back then im restricted to which hand to draw it with to make use of its design. I know there is a holster designed for it but a folder with a clip doesn't want to be locked away as you demand the quick draw. So I tend to stick it on the belt of the bag I have around my waist or if I have a jacket it might sit in the pocket Has anyone else engineered a way around this or even found this a problem? Pat --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Sam Bell Jr" To: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:37:17 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Grand Master Bobby Taboada Coming To MD Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I wanted to put this out on behalf of my Instructor, Guro Bobby Ladra. Sam Kalidrada: Kombative Styles of the Pacific Islanders Proudly presents Grand Master Bobby Taboada The Original Art of Balintawak Escrima Cuentada System SEMINAR Sunday, August 22nd, 2004 10am - 5pm at APOLO'S KARATE 8056 Ritchie Highway Pasadena, Maryland 21122 $75 if pre-registered by August 7th. * Pre-registration forms with payment must be postmarked by August 7th to receive the pre-registration rate. NO Exception! $85 at the door or after August 7th. --------------------------------------------cut here---------------------------------- BALINTAWAK PRE-REGISTRATION FORM Name: ___________________________________ Age ________ Address: _______________________________ City: __________ State: _____ Zip: _______ Instructor: ___________________________ Style(s): ______________ Amount enclosed: $___ Date: _______ Signature: _________________ You will be askes to sign a waiver release before participating in the seminar. If you're under 18 years of age, your parent or guardian must sign the release. -------------------------------------cut here--------------------------- Please make checks or money orders payable to: APOLO'S KARATE and send the completed pre-registration form to Apolo's Karate, Attn: Balintawak Escrima, 8056 Ritchie Highway, Pasadena, Maryland 21122. For more information, please e-mail Guro Bobby at kalidrada@aol.com, or call (410) 768-5299. Please visit THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE OF GRAND MASTER BOBBY TABOADA Together in Martial Arts, Guro Bobby Kalidrada Arnis de Mano --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 05:53:51 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] We are Devo? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Jose wrote: "What others may perceive as arrogance or boasting, through a Filipino guro, it is a sign of confidence. Challenges and rivalries are very common, and because of them, FMA experts have to stay on their toes. One reason you don't see many McDojos (and trust me, there are some) in the Philippines is because of the commonality of masters and fighters that will size you up. As often as matches and challenges occur, I doubt that you will see a Filipino master who is not willing to (or for that matter, cannot) back up his talk. Keep in mind, that the attitude that my style is superior to all others, is what makes our arts so strong; the founders and teachers of the arts test them and forge them into functional arts they have used themselves. The main reason many Filipino teachers boast and walk with their heads up is that they CAN back up what they say, and have done it many times. Everyone here has studied with a Filipino teacher at some point--have you ever met one that was not willing to spar? I doubt it. The Eastern stereotype of a passive, humble man does not fit the Filipino model of a martial arts expert. My advice, if you meet a Filipino FMA teacher who thinks he is unbeatable, and he's willing to prove it, get out your wallet, because you will definitely learn something from him. , , ," Interesting point Jose, worthy of reflection. In a sense, it can be said that an important part of the impulse that led to the creation of the Dog Brothers was our wondering if what was being taught here in the US worked. Jose's point here reminds me of an analogous issue in dog breeding-- how does one keep the fighting spirit of a breed alive if the process of (un)natural selection does not test for it-- yet we also oppose the testing (dog fighting)? Jose continued: "As far as "complete" arts, FMA teachers may consider their arts complete when they know their style can hold its own against grapplers, boxers, stickfighters, and knifefighters; whether or not those arts have all those techniques. If you can use your Arnis against a boxer, TKD Black Belt, etc., who are we to say his art isn't complete??? Then there are styles that have some grappling, kicking and weapons. If you pardon my rudeness, but in the FMAs we have a way for you to question the completeness of a style: you test it and prove it yourself. I have seen some stickfighters you would not want to meet in a dark alley, even if you had friends with you. Go up against some of these guys, and tell them to their face they need jujitsu...." A fair point Jose, but there is also the idea that the man is as/more important than the style. How does one screen for this variable? > With all due respect, > Jay Likewise, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:13:31 -0600 From: excalibur921@ctnet.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: re: complete system and CSE Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Regarding the last post concerning the CSE postings on the yahoo news group, I too was tremendously surprised. This is why I wanted to bring to the attention of my learned colleagues. Again I truly appreciate the quick response Ray. Thru my insiteful learning experiences with Guro Cadell, it had always been my impression that GM Angel would have truly hurt by the dissention presently taking place. Again it is only my opinion and my impressions, and opinion are as they say are like a...holes, everyone has one. So I just thought that I would bring it to everyones attention and allow, further discussion if warranted. Again, throughout my martial experience I have had the good fortune to be associated with great instructors and wonderful organizations for the most part. This goes without saying that the majority of folk I have also had the pleasure of working out with either in seminar or on a more personal level have had great character. I would like to think that the majority of the FMA community is the same, as naive' as it may seem. Thanks again for the response and will chime in again soon when warranted. Respects to all salomat guro mike --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 08:21:16 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Sword incident in England Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Todd said >I note that a court in Scotland recently sentenced a man to eight years in prison for manslaughter. Four guys came around to his house, at least one armed with a gun, and broke in. He met them at the door with a "samurai sword" and cut one who ran away and later bled out. The others have been charged with burglary and firearms offenses. Christ on a pogo stick. How crazy can the British courts get? Why weren't the other >goblins up on the equivalent of felony murder charges? Having friends in England/Scotland and Wales there are a couple of points that are somehow getting lost in the translation of this story. This according to the Bolton Evening News 1) the so-called swordsman was a drug dealer. This was a standover robbery. (criminals robbing criminals) 2) many of the wounds were in the back of the deceased 3) it is unclear how long they were in the apartment, but they had at least searched him. Which means the attack wasn't immediate apparently neither was the threat. 4) the "gang" got away with 200 pound 5) the stabbing occurred in the hallway as they fled. 4) the remaining members of the group were also sentenced for armed robbery This is why it is important to always read several versions of a story and get as much information from different points of view before making something a rallying cry. M --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:36:36 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: GM Vincent Cabales Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/25/04 6:46:25 AM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Grandmaster Vincent is a fine fellow. I seriously doubt he would condone > such behavior on the part of any of his CSE students. ??? > > Hi all, I've had some communication in the past with GM Vincent, and got to know one of his students quite well, and I can second Ray's statement. I was treated with nothing other than respect by Vincent and the representatives of his school. Kim Satterfield --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "jay de leon" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: theclassic33@hotmail.com Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:20:37 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Jay Saguisabal's "complete" arts, unbeatable instructors... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To my tocayo (namesake) Jay, excellent post. I have made similar points in articles and postings in the past. I lived and trained extensively in MA in RP into adulthood before immigrating to the US, so I have first hand experience with Filipino guros. And when I speak of a Filipino guro, this is regardless of style, and I will expound on this. I will speak only of my own personal experiences, and will provide "snippets" of my experiences to illustrate what Jay S. speaks of. (1) A Filipino guro usually cross-trained, or had "real world" experience. It was rare to see a "pure" MA stylist. For example, my PHICKAJU instructor, Morris Delores, taught a Latino Gonzales shorin-ryu class, and the school was part of a shorin-ryu confederation (Siete Pares). But he was also a judo and arnis instructor. My arnis instructor was also a shotokan stylist and regularly competed in TKD and open karate tournaments. Many instructors were in the military or law enforcement. One of my judo instructors, GM Florencio Arambulo, a Kodokan black belt, was a uniformed police officer of Quezon City, and also taught police tactics to LEO's. (2) All guros sparred during class. One of my earliest memories was going to the NBI Judo Club, at that time probably the largest judo school. This was the only school I have seen in RP and US, that the whole dojo was covered with traditional tatami mats. Anyway, when it was time for randori, the chief instructor and all the black belts knelt at the head of the class facing the students. A student wishing to spar (randori) knelt in front of a black belt, bowed, and that was his way of requesting a randori session. (3) All of my guros had the physical wherewithal, fighting experience and the attitude/confidence to walk the walk, so to speak. Some were challenges waiting to happen. I cannot imagine any of them ignoring or refusing a challenge. In fact, I daresay you either were a champion fighter of some renown or had a death wish to challenge some of them. Let's just take one of them. One of my kung-fu/karate instructors was Wilson Yap, who also happened to a competitive bodybuilder, amateur boxer and all-around athlete (ala Roland Dantes). He said that in his system, as a prerequisite to your black belt, you had to demonstrate a breaking technique. He said he chose a round house kick using the ball of the foot, breaking an adobe block held head high by 3 people. An adobe block is a massive solid stone used in construction, usually walls or fences. He then showed us right foot. Outwardly it looked normal. When he balled his foot, though, the ball of his foot swelled to almost 3 times its normal size. The only two people I have met with deformed feet (from martial arts) are Wilson and Tak Kubota. A word on challenges. Although I have heard a few stories of challenges involving guros, I never witnessed one--either a challenge or an actual fight. But I saw many challenges and "fights" in Filipino dojos, and between dojos. Challenges were not limited to guros, and most of them did not culminate in battles to the death. Challenges can range from the Filipino "Laro tayo" to the friendly fight "Sport lang" to the deathmatch. Let's explore the differences. (1) Laro tayo - It was free time before class time at PHICKAJU, and we were all doing individual training. There was only one black belt attending that class, and I believe he was a novice instructor, though I had never been to this class. There was also a green belt--big, strong, athletic. Green belt goes to black belt, and asks respectfully in Visayan "Do you want to spar?" Black belt motions to the dojo floor, and they go at it. Physically Green belt had the advantage, but black belt held his own through sheer tenacity and experience. The fight was hard, spirited, but they kept to the rules (full contact from chest to belt, controlled hits to the face, absolutely no gear), and they shook hands at the end of the fight. Black belt had a bloody lip, and green belt had the makings of a black eye. I would have called it a draw. The point of all this is, at whatever level, you better be ready for a challenge, and it does not necessarily mean a fight to the death, but you need to back up the talk, or the black belt, or even the green belt, or whatever. (2) Sport lang - This is the version of the school yard fight. Most of the time, there is bad blood involved. So somebody challenges the other to a fight. But the idea is to settle it there, usually barehanded but anything goes, and at the end of the fight, to shake hands and let it go. It works most of the time; sometimes the vanquished can't let it go and it escalates to something else. (3) Deathmatch? - I have been a participant a few times in the two instances above. Fortunately, I have neither been involved or witnessed this type. So if you have, it's your turn to share. Jay de Leon _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 11 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 13:29:16 -0600 (CST) From: ulfhead@integrity.com Subject: [Eskrima] Blaise Loong > Ray's Review Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks again Ray for taking the time to review Blaise Loong’s DVDs. We, of course, were extremely disappointed and taken aback with your review. It seems like you just didn’t know what to look for as much of what you complained about was right in front of you. Perhaps it was due to the fact that you seem to have more of a “Karate” type background. No offense intended to “Karate” practitioners as I am simply referring to the different points of views people from different arts often have. Many other great martial artists (G.M. Leo Giron, Maestro/Guro Dexter Labonog, Guro Dan Inosanto, Guro Ted Lucay Lucay, and others) have a completely different opinion from that of you and your friends. But we did ask YOU for YOUR honest opinion and you gave us just that. Fair enough. Just as we had full confidence that you would publicly post your review of our DVDs by Blaise Loong we also have full confidence that you will allow this response to be posted on your site. Thanks again for your time. - Tyrkon Lawson - (Senior Instructor & Cameraman --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest