Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:38:11 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #135 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: "the martial arts are worthless" (Mike Casto) 2. [The_Dojang] Joongang Daily Article on Mixed Martial Arts in Korea (Ray Terry) 3. RE: "worthless" (WoodyTX) 4. Re: Just Wondering!!! **Answers from an old handicapped full contact lifetime female student, competitor & instuctor** (Johnaleen) 5. Ryan 7 (cfm) 6. Re: Just Wondering (Larry St. Clair) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] "the martial arts are worthless" Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 21:31:22 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Yup. That's what I was saying - but you put it so much more succinctly, Ray. Even though a lot of people *claim* to be looking for "real" - they're really looking for some good tasting frosting, a pat on the back, and an "attaboy" to make them feel good. And if they lose a few pounds or get a little healthier in the process, so much the better. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Terry" To: Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2004 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] "the martial arts are worthless" > > actual self defence. I think what we as life time > > martial artists sometimes forget is that the average > > person wants to learn enough to defend themselves not > > to be competitive fighters. > > Probably the average person is just looking for a workout, not > "Real" martial arts -or- self-defense training. At least a few studies > indicate that. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 19:05:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] [The_Dojang] Joongang Daily Article on Mixed Martial Arts in Korea Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net fwiw... Forwarding from the_dojang list. Ray ===================================================== To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Joongang Daily Article on Mixed Martial Arts in Korea Hi gang! Interesting article I read today in Seoul's Joongang Ilbo. There have been some recent postings in the DD about the Pride fights and K1-type events. Whether mixed martial arts are on the rise over here is speculative. However, over the past couple of years I've seen several "Thai Kickboxing"-type schools opening up in the Yongsan area in Seoul, as well as BJJ instructors advertising in English in the local English papers. Some KMA schools are offering intensive ground fighting (read BJJ) classes, too. I've seen a couple of the Pride fights over here and the second drew a pretty large crowd. FYI. Hope all is well, y'all. Kip McCormick Warrior Hapkido USKMAF Seoul "A bloody brawl gaining respect" Blood splattered on the floor of the ring, and the audience roared in delight. One screamed, "Yeah! Get him!" in between swallows of beer. The women in the crowd seemed just as excited as the men; many clenched their fists as they watched, while some threw their arms in the air as one of the gladiators in the ring pounded the other. The taekwondo master, Kim Kyung-mo, supposedly an expert in the spinning kick, had blood spewing from his nose and mouth. Mr. Kim slowly approached his opponent, Kang Hyeon-gu, a practitioner of several martial arts. The taekwondo expert dove at Mr. Kang's lower body, but in a flash, Mr. Kim was on the floor, as his opponent hit him without mercy. Audience members continued to eat their dinners, while shouting out the occasional encouragement. The restaurant, Gimme Five, which opened Feb. 28 next to the COEX Center in Samseong-dong, southern Seoul, is the first in Korea to provide live mixed martial arts competitions with an order of sushi or steak (whether you want that bloody, too, is up to you). The eatery's booming popularity highlights Koreans' increasing interest in gyeoktugi. The word refers to hand-to-hand competition between two different martial arts, including taekwondo, judo, kickboxing and Muay Thai. The rules vary with each competition, but the goal is to knock out the other fighter. "We have 700 customers every day," said Lee Sun-kyeong, a Gimme Five spokeswoman. "We expect the number will double in the future." Most Gimme Five customers are office workers in their 20s and 30s. "But those in their 40s and older also like it," she said. Women seem to enjoy the fights more, she said, even though combatants can lose a tooth or two and blood flows freely during the matches. "Some even complain when the game ends without a knockout," Ms. Lee said. She said many have found the matches too gruesome at first, but that there's an indescribable addiction in watching two men punching the lights out of each other. "It's my first time coming to Gimme Five, but I'm a huge fan of gyeoktugi," said Shin Jeong-ah, 38, who was watching the fight with her other girlfriends. Ms. Shin said that when she first saw a gyeoktugi match on television, she was shocked and frightened by the gruesome brutality. Now she watches it on cable whenever she can. "My favorite fighter is Bob Sapp from K-1," Ms. Shin said excitedly. Bob Sapp, also known as "The Beast," is a former National Football League player who played for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and later became a K-1 fighter. K-1 is a mixed martial arts competition founded by Seidokan karate master Kazuyoshi Ishii in 1993 that now has a huge international following. "The fights are real, and it really helps get rid of all the stress in me," Ms. Shin added. Ms. Shin is thinking of joining a gyeoktugi club. She would have lots of company. KBS Sky, which broadcasts "Pride FC," another major international martial arts competition, said fans number more than 500,000 in Korea, with 20 to 30 percent of them women. In addition, the country's largest Internet portal, Daum, has more than 500 communities dedicated to gyeoktugi. Some communities have fewer than 400 registered members while one of the largest has 257,000. Influence of TV SBS Sports, another major cable company, began broadcasting shows such as "Free Fighting," "Absolute Fighting," "Knockout" and "Cage Fighting" last year. MBC-ESPN began airing "Great Fight Zone" and "K-1" last year as well. According to TNS Media Korea, this month the gyeoktugi cable programs have done well, with ratings ranging from 20 to 40 percent. In Japan, the competitions have been drawing fans since the 1990s, but Koreans have taken an interest only since last year. "People really started to notice mixed martial arts after the Spirit MC was held last year," said Choi Young-jae, president of KM Promotion, which teaches kickboxing and Muay Thai. Spirit MC is a Korean mixed martial arts competition, first held last April. Spirit MC is planning on hosting its third major event, titled, "I'll Be Back," on April 10, at Jangchung Stadium near Dongdaemun, central Seoul. "In our first two major events, we had 6,000 to 7,000 at each," said Kim Myeong of Spirit MC. "But then we gave out a lot of free tickets. We expect more than 3,000 actual fans to turn up for our third tournament." Jeong Gwang-su, who runs a Muay Thai and kickboxing dojo in Macheon-dong, southeastern Seoul, credits television for changing the image of mixed martial arts competition. "I would say 50 percent of the change is due to television shows," Mr. Jeong said. Mr. Choi of KM Promotion said that since Spirit MC, gyeoktugi's public image has improved. "Just 12 years ago most of our dojo's students were either high school graduates or late 20s," said Mr. Choi. "People looked at gyeoktugi as fighting skills used by local gangsters and hoodlums. "People now see it as a legitimate sport, and that's why a wide range of people, from elementary students to office ladies, are inquiring about lessons," Mr. Choi said. He has seen the number of female applicants go up 30 percent. Not only is gyeoktugi a form of self-defense, it's useful in losing weight, Mr. Jeong said. Both Mr. Choi and Mr. Jeong said people enjoy mixed martial arts because it's a good way to relieve stress, not only by participating but by watching. Viewers live vicariously through the players. "People like it because of the muscle, the masculinity and the power," Mr. Jeong said. "That's the ultimate charm of gyeoktugi." "Wrestling matches on television have 40 scriptwriters who are pre-coordinating the games," said Ms. Lee of Gimme Five. "But this ... gyeoktugi is real and unpredictable, and that's what really excites people." How it may affect kids Others are concerned that the popularity of gyeoktugi may be a bad influence on children. "We can divide it into two major negative influences," said Choi Won-ki at the Korea Institute for Youth Development. "First, gyeoktugi aired on television is generally provocative, and second, it obscures the difference between good and evil. "In society, there's definitely a law to follow and morality to uphold. However, being exposed to too much gyeoktugi will only weaken this ability to distinguish between good and bad. When they grow up, children will respond to the law of the jungle, where only the strong survive," said Mr. Choi. "They will only follow those who are stronger than others," he said. In addition, the graphic nature of the fighting will lead not only children but adults to become violent, Mr. Choi said. "Even reasonable adults will become more emotional, and later they will try to solve problems with physical power like they have seen on gyeoktugi shows," Mr. Choi said. "Already young children have formed their own gyeoktugi clubs, but what they are doing is not mastering the techniques as a martial art but using it as a tool to win over others physically," he said. Choi Yang-soo, a media professor at Yonsei University and a fan of gyeoktugi, disagreed. "People watch the show not because of the violence and blood," the professor said. "On the contrary, there's a lot of splendid techniques and watching those techniques is fun. "I believe it is because of the desire to return to nature as technology advances," he said. "It's anti-technology sentiment that drives us to our raw, natural instinct." The professor said at first he too thought it was provocative and violent, and asked his son, who enjoyed the sport, to learn taekwondo instead, where the object isn't to splatter your opponent's head all over the mat. "I really didn't understand gyeoktugi that well, but now, knowing how martial arts have a long history and all, I watch it at night on cable television once in awhile," he said. Some fans find that watching isn't enough. Hwang Hae-jin, 31, is an office worker who has been training at KM Promotion for almost a year. "I've worked out at health clubs and tried other sports, but I really enjoy the sheer thrill of gyeoktugi," said Ms. Hwang. She said most of her girlfriends admire her because not many of them will try it. "I feel light, and I get a boost to my confidence when I work out," said Ms. Hwang. People like Ms. Hwang give Mr. Jeong, of the kickboxing center, a reason to hope that gyeoktugi will become less of a sideshow and more of a discipline. "I dream of the day when gyeoktugi becomes an everyday sport in this country," Mr. Jeong said. by Lee Ho-jeong 2004.03.26 _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list, 1600 members The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "WoodyTX" To: Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:51:00 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: "worthless" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Now, let's compare it to a Cardio- > Kick boxing class or other latest fads > in MA. We see the opposite, lots of > women compared to men and more older > people are seen present.. The class > teach them maybe 3-4 kinds of kicks, 2-3 > hand techniques, kick the bags a little, > few stretches, couple push-ups or > set-ups, and with lots of dancing. Heh-heh. You should come to one of our "Impact" Kickboxing classes. To the novice, it looks like a cardio-KB class with Thai pads. To the martial artist, it looks an awful lot like muay Thai. Four- and six-count combos, knees, elbows, skip-kicks, push-kicks, etc. All pads, all the time; hence the name, "Impact". Most beginners, even martial artists, "fall out" of the class after about 20 minutes. Some of our "Real Martial Arts" students use it for conditioning, practice, and fun. The class has grown to fill nine hours a week, and almost all the classes are constantly full. The class is about 80% female. Since the classes began about 2-3 years ago, three of the women in the Impact classes have been attacked. All three fought back. All three won the situation or managed to do enough damage to get away safely. While we don't recommend it as a self-defense class, it does seem to work by teaching how to hit and kick, and by developing confidence in yourself. Just because it appeals to the masses, doesn't mean it's not a martial art. WoodyTX --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Johnaleen" To: Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:31:19 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Just Wondering!!! **Answers from an old handicapped full contact lifetime female student, competitor & instuctor** Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net ***************** Jorge V. Penafiel Wrote" 1) The most profound point showed was there is none or negligible attraction to Women and Older People. Why the less interest from two of the biggest groups of people in our population and who also happened to be the most victims of crimes??? We all have the consensus that FMA offers diversified MA training which are beneficial to say the "Self-Defense" criteria among other things. So, why this scenarios?? **************** There are a number of reasons that have been stated by women and seniors as to why they do not want to train in reality based martial arts, traditional martial arts or hard core self defense (this includes fma, jkd and other full contact traditional arts.) the answers have come from trained and non women and seniors, that I have asked personally and documented the responses or they have participated on a global level over the past 7 years filling out questionnaires sent out by my org. Below i am going i have written about some of the responses and reasons they have given as to why they think they dont train in the arts. 1) Why Get Beat up?: Many times the way full contact martial arts is marketed scares them away, most women don't get why they should go and take a class where they have to get beaten up so they can learn how to protect themselves so they don't get beaten up. Is this the actual case in most fma or jkd or other full contact traditional martial arts classes for women? Sometimes, but most times its just the sometimes lousy examples of it and the hard core persona and marketing that scares women away from even trying or from wanting to train in a full contact art that can really teach them how to stay alive. 2) Unwanted in classes: Many men that teach hard core arts many times don't either want a women in the class or the students who are in the class are men that don't want to have to train at a lower contact level so the women can learn at her own pace and actability level. And sometimes men on the floor with an inexperienced women can be short on patience and come at her a lot harder and faster then she is willing to face on her frist lesson. And many times, a man that is on the floor with a women that has any experience can be threatened by her skills and push limits far beyond what should be pushed in a class because of his ego. For a women or student Who is already nervous and then has a dude coming at them full contact or without any patience will get disillusioned fast. 3) Physical training differences: And when a women gets home from a frist or second class martial arts class and feels the pain because she was overworked the frist few times its not worth going back because she did not feel the pleasant burn of legs and gut but the bruised and battered feeling from being bent, pushed, squeezed and whacked. And many times the bruising and contusions remind her of the reason she did not want to go to the class to begin with. Furthermore, most classes taught just by men are designed for men and to help build a mans body. However the same set of exercises or training methods that are appropriate for a man many times are not what most women are use to training (muscle and body wise) kickboxing and aerobics without the strain of another body to contend with is totally different then full contact sparing, punching and kicking at someone or on a bag.) It feels very different to a women's body then doing an aerobic static workout. In addition, women and seniors burse much faster and much easer then a man of decent health with some training behind him will. Therefore, the visual effect on a women's body after taking a full contact class can be very embarrassing on a visual level. When a women walks down the street with burses on her she will be looked at like she is a battered wife not a full contact martial arts student. And then if she tells the truth, then the stigma that goes with training full contact in the martial arts for a women is evil, just out and out it can be so negative that its just not worth doing because your accused of being everything other then a women that wants to learn how to protect her self. (And i have logs from this digest to prove that negative attitude from men in the ma, fma and SDA fields as members here, all challenged because i was a women training in the martial arts on a very serious level) not everyone is like that but there are many that are, hell the frist time i was called a dojo darling on this digest by a member- so called teacher i did not even know what the word meant, however i did know what bulldog dyke meant) Experience: Is this coming form experience and hard data? Yes, it is coming from 7 years of hard data and research that the fate org has been doing on a very diligent level. It also comes from me and a few other women working with me all over the USA and the global community training in fma-jkd and self defense programs as sort of undercover level one students (this data collection and research has been taking place now off and on for the past 25+ years) What did we learn?: (Being a women training full contact with limitations and then teaching MA and SDA for a living) What I learned has been a huge positive gain for women, children and seniors in general because I am able to market to them and I was able to develop class formats that allow students to train at their own acceptability levels. I also learned that I fall into a one percent population on a global level because I teach men, women, children, seniors and handicapped full contact SDA and full contact reality based martial arts. Training in them, I was part of a 3 % population but getting advanced enough to teach dropped me down to a 1% global population of women who teach martial arts and self defense compared to men in the same field. My goal of course is to raise those percentage numbers on a global level over the next 20 years of my life. Jeet Kune Do Concepts: And to be honest my lifetime training in JKD-FMA concepts made it possible for me to be capable of seeing though the norm and using what best suits each person on an individual level when teaching them instead of forcing them and myself into training something that just did not suite me or them based on the ' ONLY ONE WAY CONCEPT" that many martial arts instructors stick too instead of evolving out of. ***************** Jorge V. Penafiel Wrote" 2) Yet what is upsetting to us MA Instructors was when asked, these women would say the class made them confident, strong, and prepared to protect themselves.Whoaaa!!! ******* Who asked these women? In addition, how many women were asked? In addition, did these same women have the same amount of time experiencing an FMA class? Did they know what a martial art is compared to self-defense? Moreover, did they understand fully what they were learning and how it was not or would apply to self-defense on the streets? Because to be frank I have asked women all over the world for the past 7 years. And not just verbally but though questioners and data collection. What I have found is quite different then the statements you have made above once we look deeper into what a women believes she is doing something for compared to a man. ***************** Jorge V. Penafiel Wrote" 3) ???.."Maybe time to reflect and assist/listen to what our customers (students) needs instead of us telling them what they need. ************* If a teacher in the marital arts or self defense is not already doing the above then they should not be teaching, if classes are small and the school is in a location to teach from in a demographic area that can afford the school and its only pulling one group of people in or client type then teacher is only teaching a program that will attract one client type. Last point, the Filipino martial arts have everything in it to market to women and seniors, and to do so effectively. However its apparent based on what your saying here that your experiences have either been very narrow or very limited without full data and research to back it. I teach a lager balance of students and clients apparently then others might in the fma, however that's because I have developed full courses and outlines for each cliental that I teach to. Furthermore, at the same time promoting the fma, jkd and SDA in a manor that is taught to best suit each student and each body type. Not one format that was passed down and developed to teach men to save villages, fight in wars, or beat the hell out of someone that messes with them on the streets. What I teach is marketed and represented in a manor that helps each student find there way into FMA, JKD or SDA from within their own acceptability levels and physical capability's, Not mine, or one of my teachers from the past, but theirs. And yes, I teach men, women, children, and seniors very effectively (Most of the time in the same class together). Ms J..... CEO/FATE Organization Lifetime Student..... --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "cfm" To: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 01:42:22 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Ryan 7 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The CRKT Ryan 7 is a great knife, I carry it myself. My only complaint about it is the zig zag handle tends to get snagged on your clothes when you try deploying it with speed, or maybe it's just me. I still really like the knife and the black one is a sexy model. Carson Kali Ilustrisimo --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Larry St. Clair" To: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:01:10 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Just Wondering Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Everyone, Just to throw my two cents in... We are constantly amazed at how our ratios defy the standard setting that you mentioned. We have a 50/50 Kali program that actually usually leans more towards more women then men! It is funny how it happens but we have had the same thing happen over years in our Vale Tudo program as well as our Jun Fan / Jeet Kune Do program. I personally think it is how we demonstrate and teach the art. Something I try not to focus on is teaching an eclectic art eclectically. Many of us including myself are MA geeks and we often learn better by getting our hand hit or doing footwork with some one swinging at you; but as you can probably figure, the majority of the public won't really stay for that part. Our goal is to really get the general public into the more "eclectic" arts so that everyone gets the chance to see and enjoy the same things we have found over our time training. Just some thoughts. Hope this helps. Larry --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest