Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:01:50 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #136 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: RE: "worthless" (steven ledwith) 2. student retention (steven ledwith) 3. cardio-kickboxing/crkt ryan 7 (jason couture) 4. Ms. J has my attention (Michael Massie) 5. Re: cardio-kickboxing/crkt ryan 7 (Mike Casto) 6. RE: "the martial arts are worthless" (Ernest Westbrook) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:37:54 -0800 (PST) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: "worthless" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sounds like good stuff there. Pad training always helps in that it gets people used to hitting something hard. It amazes me that so many people are afraid to hit something or someone , violence has become taboo in our society . Most women that I have talked to about self defence say that they wouldn't be able to do what is nescessary to save themselves ie hurt someone else. On the subject of pad training most female students I have seen enjoy hitting the pads or bags but want no part of sparring or being hit... who likes to be hit? But I find that men are more willing to get hit if they have the prospect of hitting back. --- WoodyTX wrote: > > Now, let's compare it to a Cardio- > > Kick boxing class or other latest fads > > in MA. We see the opposite, lots of > > women compared to men and more older > > people are seen present.. The class > > teach them maybe 3-4 kinds of kicks, 2-3 > > hand techniques, kick the bags a little, > > few stretches, couple push-ups or > > set-ups, and with lots of dancing. > > Heh-heh. You should come to one of our "Impact" > Kickboxing classes. To the > novice, it looks like a cardio-KB class with Thai > pads. To the martial > artist, it looks an awful lot like muay Thai. Four- > and six-count combos, > knees, elbows, skip-kicks, push-kicks, etc. All > pads, all the time; hence > the name, "Impact". > > Most beginners, even martial artists, "fall out" of > the class after about 20 > minutes. Some of our "Real Martial Arts" students > use it for conditioning, > practice, and fun. The class has grown to fill nine > hours a week, and > almost all the classes are constantly full. The > class is about 80% female. > > Since the classes began about 2-3 years ago, three > of the women in the > Impact classes have been attacked. All three fought > back. All three won > the situation or managed to do enough damage to get > away safely. While we > don't recommend it as a self-defense class, it does > seem to work by teaching > how to hit and kick, and by developing confidence in > yourself. > > Just because it appeals to the masses, doesn't mean > it's not a martial art. > > WoodyTX > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 07:48:40 -0800 (PST) From: steven ledwith To: eskrimadigest Subject: [Eskrima] student retention Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Has anyone on the list looked back on their data and figured out what is the best way to retain their female students, in regards to women only classes or co-ed classes? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 10:47:58 -0800 (PST) From: jason couture To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] cardio-kickboxing/crkt ryan 7 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all! My take on the cardio-kickboxing vs. MA is this, people always come up to me and say "what can I do to learn to protect myself"? The people who ask me these things don't want to spend years learning hundreds of techniques. My advise to these kinds of people is to, #1: Get in good shape! People who are in good shape are still a handful to deal with, even if they don't know any MA. #2: Learn some cardio-kickboxing because, it will get you in shape and it teaches you some solid basics about self-defense (which you could expand on by learning MA if you wanted to at a later time). Cardio-kickboxing is like a crash course on self-defense that you can start using right away. I say all this even though I am not a cardio-kickboxing teacher. My years have been given to the FMA. I have nothing to gain by telling people about cardio-kickboxing, I just feel that it's the perfect thing for people who don't have the time for traditional MA. O.K. on another note, the CRKT Ryan 7 folder: I found this to be a great, chunky, fat blade knife. I realy like the "jimping" on the back of the blade. This blade feels good in motion and looks like it could leave a very nasty hole....if needed. My only dislike is the fact that I prefer blades with a hole rather than the thumb stud. CRKT has done it again! Affordable, quality, blades for cheap bastards like me!! ===== **JASON COUTURE** __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Massie" To: Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:17:53 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Ms. J has my attention Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Johnaleen, thank goodness someone who actually knows the women's market (a woman, and one who has obviously studied it both from the perspective of a martial artist and a consumer) is sharing their thoughts here. You fellas' should listen to what Ms. J has to say. Best damn explanation of the female attitude toward martial arts training I have ever read. With regards to this, my wife and I laugh about the days when we first met. For the record, she had never trained before she met me, and frankly doesn't care to train much now for many of the reasons Ms. J describes. Anyway, she used to think that my line of work was a little strange, to say the least. As she puts it, she saw it as kind of being "like those Ren-fest guys running around pretending to be something they aren't." In other words, she thought it was just plain silly for grown-ups to run around in funny clothes and beat each other up. This was all news to me - I thought everyone viewed the MA the same way me and my buddies did. I never thought anyone would see it as being nerdy or silly. Big wake-up call. Now, my wife understands the arts and their practice, and respects what we do as instructors (but she still thinks getting beat up all the time is silly and counter-productive). The lesson here is that we as male martial artists tend to view things from our own perspective when we attempt to market our services, instead of trying to see things from the client/student's perspective. And, what's the best way to find out what the client wants? Well, to ask them! Now there's a novel concept... Thanks again, Ms. J, for sharing your experience and research with the list. If you have detailed info on your research, I would love to see it. Best regards, Michael D. Massie MD Marketing, LLC E-mail massie@small-dojo-big-profits.com Web www.small-dojo-big-profits.com ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." President Theodore Roosevelt "Citizenship in a Republic," Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] cardio-kickboxing/crkt ryan 7 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 15:54:14 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You must have seen different cardio kickboxing than I have. What I've seen, they don't worry about form, power generation, targeting, etc. They worry only about a good cardio workout. There are some exceptions but almost all of the programs I've seen will get a person in shape but won't do much for self-defense. There is definitely a difference between "self-defense" training and "martial arts" training - though "self-defense" can certainly be a part of "martial arts" training. But a good self-defense course will cover a lot of awareness and avoidance issues. A lot of people aren't interested in these areas because they're not usually getting a good workout from them. It will teach basic power generation - because hitting an attacker with a love tap isn't going to be very effective "self-defense." It will teach targeting for maximum effect - and it will teach ways to reach the targets. It will have scenario training. IMO, a good self-defense course must also have some fighting - i.e.: a padded aggressor is one example but not the only method. The person has to know what it feels like to be attacked. All the skill/ability/training in the world won't do a bit of good if the person freezes up. I think this is the big one that deters a lot of people from realistic SD or MA training. And, as I mentioned previously, the training must be maintained. A good SD program could consist of a few strikes, a handful of targets, footwork, body mechanics, awareness training, scenario training, and, of course, cardio and running. The basics could be taught in a very short amount of time - probably in as short as 5 or 6 hours. But then the material *must* be drilled to get it ingrained. Otherwise it's going to be next to useless. If the person takes a course that's maybe 3 weeks (6 hours of basics and the rest of the time on drilling/ingraining), and then never does anything else, then they can't realistically expect to pull off anything a year down the road. They have to maintain the training - not necessarily learning new material (that starts leading to "MA" training) but drilling the basics over and over and over again. That's another part that a lot of people *really* dislike. They want to believe it's like an emergency credit card - you put it in your wallet and forget about it unless it's needed. This stuff doesn't work like that. It's more like car insurance - you keep paying your dues so that *if* sommething happens, you've got some coverage. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "jason couture" To: Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 1:47 PM Subject: [Eskrima] cardio-kickboxing/crkt ryan 7 > Hi all! My take on the cardio-kickboxing vs. MA is > this, people always come up to me and say "what can I > do to learn to protect myself"? The people who ask me > these things don't want to spend years learning > hundreds of techniques. My advise to these kinds of > people is to, #1: Get in good shape! People who are > in good shape are still a handful to deal with, even > if they don't know any MA. #2: Learn some > cardio-kickboxing because, it will get you in shape > and it teaches you some solid basics about > self-defense (which you could expand on by learning MA > if you wanted to at a later time). Cardio-kickboxing > is like a crash course on self-defense that you can > start using right away. I say all this even though I > am not a cardio-kickboxing teacher. My years have > been given to the FMA. I have nothing to gain by > telling people about cardio-kickboxing, I just feel > that it's the perfect thing for people who don't have > the time for traditional MA. O.K. on another note, > the CRKT Ryan 7 folder: I found this to be a great, > chunky, fat blade knife. I realy like the "jimping" > on the back of the blade. This blade feels good in > motion and looks like it could leave a very nasty > hole....if needed. My only dislike is the fact that I > prefer blades with a hole rather than the thumb stud. > CRKT has done it again! Affordable, quality, blades > for cheap bastards like me!! > > ===== > **JASON COUTURE** > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Ernest Westbrook" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 03:49:03 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: "the martial arts are worthless" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steven, I am not about to give you that 'backlash' that you are waiting for because it seems to me that there are several ways to address this idea. >steven ledwith stevenledwith@yahoo.com wrote,  "the martial arts are worthless" Mike Castro wrote on the list that "They voluntarily put blinders on. Then, if they get attacked, they often turn to the attitude of, "martial arts are worthless, I'm not wasting my money on anymore of that bunk." One point of contention could be that in fact both you and Mike are correct.  If someone entered into a "Black Belt School" and trained in the "Do" style of instruction, expecting to learn how to defend ones self, then the time and money spent was wasted.  Training for competetion sparring and forms is generally not going to prepare one for a street confrontation be one on one or one against several others.  So one generally gets what one pays for, no more no less.  I am not saying that the training is worthless, what I am saying is that the consumer did not do a very good job of comparison shopping, because he/she paid for a particular product when it was not what the person really wanted.  That person needs to suck it up, admit they made a poor choice and find a different teacher and art. >IMHO and experience the most of what is taught as "Martial" arts and self defence is >worthless for actual self defence. I would agree with you on this, however I would caution you that you bear a considerable amount of responsibility to seek out what you truely want if what you receiving from an instructor is meeting your goals or needs.  The very first clue that you are in the wrong setting for true self defense training is the size of the class and a program that is being run on a large well lite floor.  Most good self defense programs are taught in small (800 or so square feet) spaces.  The number of students usually total less than 25 in total.  Why?  Because they are getting hit!  They are getting thrown!  They are getting joint-locked and taken down, hard!  They had to agree to receive some bumps and bruises as part of the training/learning enviroment without complaints... for the most part!  Write me privately, I will give the names of some real slf defense oriented instructors. >I think what we as life time martial artists sometimes forget is that the average person wants to >learn enough to defend themselves not to be competitive fighters. If that is what the student/consumer is after then he/she has to say that up-front and very clearly.  The student/consumer must also shop around for the right instructor and program.  They can not allow themselves to stay within the comfortable 3.5 miles from home mentality when they are seeking self defense instruction because not all martial arts instructors are teaching self defense techniques and applications.  Shooping around and talking to others is the best method for finding what one is looking for in a martial arts/self defense program. >What I consider self defence is being able to get away from a bad situation and it shouldn't take >2 to 10 years to learn how to do that. It should take a month or 2 to train some how to get >away. I disagree with you here in terms of the time factor.  Two months is too short a time period unless there is a very specific attack that is being used against the prospective student by a particular person.  If that is the case, then two to three months of training several times a week is adequate for that person, however they are still very vulnerable other types of attack. >Most of us "lifers" know way more than we need to survive. I tell people if they want to learn >an art(they put blinders on) fine sign up for classes but if they just want self defence give me 6 >hours a week for 2 months. OK, Steve, let's do the math: 6 hours per week times(x) 8 weeks comes out to 48 hours of instruction.  Please explain to me exactly what you can teach in 48 hours that would prepare an adult for a possible confrontation on the street.  Are you talking about defending against slaps, punches, front chokes, rear chokes, wrist grabs, upper arm grabs, knife slashes, knife thrusts, knife held against the throat from the front or rear, rear garrot attacks, blunt insturment attacks - horizontal, overhead or diagonal slicing from the front, side and rear, not to mention being tacckled and taken to the ground from the front and/or rear?  Please enlighten me as to what you are going to teach and hoow you are going to teach it well in a mere 48 hours of instructional time.  I am quite curious as to how this gets done in such a short amount of time. >From my own experiences as a student, I am more inclined to believe that 6 hours a week for eight to twelve months is amore reasonable time frame to work within.   That gives the student 192 or 288 hours of self defense instruction.  It also allows for the instructor to bring in a one or more guest instructors to teach some aspects of self defnse fighting that the primary instructor is not well versed in.  All of us "lifers" tend to have specific areas of strength and weaknesses.  If I am teaching people for self defense situations I would want as much time as possible to teach from my strengths and bring in others to teach my student in my weak areas.   EBrook THE Wicked Western Warlock ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage. Multiple plans available. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest