Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 15:59:06 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #145 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Kali (Ray Terry) 2. kali,eskrima,arnis (jason couture) 3. Re: Kali (DenverAMA@aol.com) 4. Re: Kali (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Kali (DenverAMA@aol.com) 6. RE: Ernest Westbrook replies (Ernest Westbrook) 7. Re: Kali (Ray Terry) 8. Re: Re: [Eskrima] Kali (jmarana@verizon.net) 9. Re: Kali (DenverAMA@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 07:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > A bit more info, > In some circles each are represented as follows: > > Kali- 12 subsystems or training categories > Eskrima- 1-7 subsystems/areas (single stick, double stick, stick & dagger, > dagger, empty hands, staff, flexible weapons) > Arnis de mano 1-3 subsystems/areas (single stick, double stick, stick & > dagger) Can you indicate in what circle this claim is made? We've never heard this before and have several counterexamples. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 07:58:08 -0700 (PDT) From: jason couture To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] kali,eskrima,arnis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi - Just wanted to add (for the person seeking info about the subject) that the FMA is just as commited to empty hand self-defense as to using a blade or stick. Joint-lock techniques are taught, punches, kicking, etc.... The great thing about FMA is that it is still not well known by EVERYBODY ON THE PLANET (yet, anyway) What I mean by that is this: When people in my squad (military) want to fool around and get rough, they don't know how to handel the techniques I use against them. Theses people might have been high school wrestlers or learned the all popular Karate or what ever cookie cutter art out there. Theses people think your going to attack them like a Karate player or a traditional wrestler. So they defend like they have been taught. They are not ready for the double sinawali or the stomping kicks, oblique kicks, etc.. Then what really surprises them is when we are in a clinch and "click" out pops your blade which puts them in a very bad position. I'm not saying all this to put down any other self-defense program because, I too cross-train. This is just based off of my own experiences. There are Karate players out there that could break you in half in less than a second (I hope to never meet them!) I always show favour towards the FMA becuase, that is what has worked for me. Blah,blah,blah..... Have a great day, all!! ===== **JASON COUTURE** __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: DenverAMA@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:21:32 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 4/7/2004 8:18:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time, rterry@idiom.com writes: > >A bit more info, > >In some circles each are represented as follows: > > > >Kali- 12 subsystems or training categories > >Eskrima- 1-7 subsystems/areas (single stick, double stick, stick &dagger, > >dagger, empty hands, staff, flexible weapons) > >Arnis de mano 1-3 subsystems/areas (single stick, double stick, stick & > >dagger) > > Can you indicate in what circle this claim is made? > > We've never heard this before and have several counterexamples. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com Ray~ Who are "we"? Im not interested in getting in a big hoopla over this. I am interested in giving a bit more specific information to the inquiry. And I even have MORE, but that is a good beginner point for the person asking. Feel free to post your counter examples. I think that is what this forum is for. I am most definitely not interested in hopping on the debate wagon for this.. I feel its important to be able to answer simply and not so ABOVE everyone's head as well as with an inviting response. The FMA has much to offer. Our website indicates who we represent and who my instructors are. I put it at the bottom of my previous post as well as this one. Best to you~ Clean motives. Ray if you have some other question, email me privately. Heather MonDee www.denverama.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Who are "we"? Those of us here reading your post last night. Names, ranks, serial numbers provided upon request. :) > but that is a good beginner point for the person asking. Feel free to post > your counter examples. Several are available in the FMA FAQ. Also consider that some combine the names Kali/Eskrima/Arnis or change from one to the other over time, e.g. Lema Scientific Kali Arnis System, Pekiti-Tirisa changing its name from Arnis to Kali, and Kali Ilustrisimo. But it was perhaps best explained by Gm Floro Villabrille. When asked about the differences between Kali and Eskrima he said, "Eskrima, Kali, same same." I suspect he would have included Arnis in that category also. In the ten years of this FMA forum your post was the first to make that claim. So just curious what circles believe that is an accurate description and upon what evidence. Always willing to learn new material... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: DenverAMA@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 14:26:33 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray~ When prospective students inquire of the difference, I do mention that they are "generally" the same. But that can easily be discredited by any one training at any length in the fma's. That is a very broad sweep, but I follow that up with the emphasis of each names training in their subsystems and what time and cultural period the names represent. Most individuals starting out.. thats plenty for them to handle. In 10 years, I am sure you all know this far better than I do. My job is make the fma presentable to beginners and anyone asking any question on the level they ask it. Not water it down nor overwhelm with some "lofty" explanation over everyones head. Not a general brush off with "they are all they same" with no follow up. I followed up on your comment which is true (generally) but not fair to the person asking the question. I was attempting to build on you and complement your reply. Am I saying anything truly different then what you already know? If you go deeper, will someone training in Escrima really say they are training in Arnis? Will they? In our academy, we train in 2 Kali systems: Kali, all 12 subsystems (Lacoste Inosanto) as well as Kali-Sayoc Kali. If that is what my instructors call it that is what it is. If it (Kali)covers all the areas that represent Escrima/Arnis-as well God bless America. Way to promote the arts! Then it comes back to the instructor responsiblilty- I just shared who I represent so that is the "flavor" I teach :-) I know already, people like to jump this band wagon regarding names etc. But really I just want to answer the question for the guy so he has an idea that they generally teach particular categories. Heather MonDee www.denverama.com > >Who are "we"? > > Those of us here reading your post last night. Names, ranks, serial numbers > provided upon request. :) > > >but that is a good beginner point for the person asking. Feel free to post > > >your counter examples. > > Several are available in the FMA FAQ. Also consider that some combine the > names Kali/Eskrima/Arnis or change from one to the other over time, e.g. > Lema Scientific Kali Arnis System, Pekiti-Tirisa changing its name from > Arnis to Kali, and Kali Ilustrisimo. > > But it was perhaps best explained by Gm Floro Villabrille. When asked about > the differences between Kali and Eskrima he said, "Eskrima, Kali, same > same." > I suspect he would have included Arnis in that category also. > > In the ten years of this FMA forum your post was the first to make that > claim. > So just curious what circles believe that is an accurate description and > upon what evidence. Always willing to learn new material... > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Ernest Westbrook" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 19:02:05 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Ernest Westbrook replies Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net   stefmorley@hotmail.com, wrote:  >EBrook wrote .. > > > Please explain to me exactly what you can teach in 48 hours that would prepare an adult  > >for a possible confrontation on the street.     >If you're not 100% more prepared after the first lesson then its probably too complex. How >many hours does it take to teach someone to stick their thumbs into someones eyes? Even >highly skilled, motivated and trained martial artists would struggle with some of the situations >you mention, especially where weapons are concerned.  Sorry Stef, I disagree with your first lesson contention.  It assumes too much and leaves agreat deal to chance.  In order to thumb the eyes the assailant has to be very close.  Tha close means the assailant can also strike with both hands, use a low-line kick to the shins and attack with a knife that most likely will not be seen by the victim.  Thats does not mean that the training is useless, however it was not extensive enouh to handle that situation.  Training, even very extensive training, does not make one invencible.  Highly skilled people can be defeated, ambushed or overwhelmed by numbers. My concern is what can someone teach another person about defending ones self in a reasonable amount of time?   Does that training give the defender a reasonable chance of escaping a confrontation with very little physical damge?  Unfortunately weapons are a fact of life and outlaws are often armed in the plying of their trade. >Surely anything beyond the most basic and brutal actions taught in a way that even the >weakest and least co-ordinated person can master and apply immediatly, and you're straying >back into the realms of specialist MA training? Anything beyond about 4 - 6 lessons 2 hours in >duration: you're going for a PHD!  >Thanks for reading, Stef I again disagree.  The training can be specific for a number of possible attacks.  The training can consist of overlapping responses.  Inother words the same attack can be handled by two or more responses and a single response can be tailored to hadle two or three different attacks with just minor modifcations.  That provides the defender with a limit number of responses which can be drilled relentlessly if the training time frame is very short as suggested by Steven.  Personally I subscribed to the idea of doing a few things very well when it comes to self defense.  No "PHD"!  Its more like graduating from Jr High with sound basic skills that can be built on later if desired. stevenledwith@yahoo.com wote: >Subject: [Eskrima] Ernest Westbrook replies > >>"OK, Steve, let's do the math: 6 hours per week >>times(x) 8 weeks comes >>out to 48 hours of instruction.  Please explain to me >>exactly what you can teach in 48 hours that would prepare an adult for a >>possible confrontation on the street.  Are you talking about >>defending against slaps, punches, front chokes, rear chokes, wrist >>grabs, upper arm grabs, knife slashes, knife thrusts, knife held against the >>throat from the front or rear, rear garrot attacks, blunt insturment >>attacks - horizontal, overhead or diagonal slicing from the >>front, side and rear, not to mention being tacckled and taken to the ground >>from the front and/or rear?  Please enlighten me as to what you are >>going to teach and hoow you are going to teach it well in a mere 48 hours of instructional >>time.  I am quite curious as to how this gets done in such a short amount of time." >First off good reply ,I think we can learn from this type of dialog. :)  I don't anyone can be >prepared for every specific type of attack , when I first started training in TMA that was the mindset I encountered. I fully agree that we can not be prepared for every type of attack.  However are all attack exclusive and unlike all other attacks?  I think not. >But if we look at most violent criminals and street fighters we see that they don't have alot of >training but what they do have is a couple of moves and a lot of aggression. I'm not sure that i would want to bet on that statement after watching the Surviving Edged Weapons video and talking to COs and former inmates of the "ciminal universities".  I do agrre that the violent types do have a lot of aggression and rely on the added element of surprise. >Being they veteran of a LOT of ass whuppin's I came to the martial arts looking for self >defence, and after my first 6 years of training TMA I still didn't think I was any better off than >when I started. To keep this shorter I'll say I was introduced to reality defence , JKD, and FMA >and saw the light. I can't comment on your personal experiences so I will accept you at your word.  I ffurther will agree with you that JKD and FMA are better adapted to teaching realistic SD than many other martial arts. >Joe Lewis said all you need is about 10 moves and aggression and I agree, he has a good >program but personally I like Vunak's street fighting/RAT program for empty hand . I also teach >largo knife and using the knife to escape from grabs. Finally gear them up put them under >pressure. I my experience this has been the most effective and quickest way to prepare >someone for the street. But you have not aswered my specuific questions.  We are in agreement that fewer techniques taught and repitiously rehersed are better than a wide ranging array of techniques walked through a few times.  My question was and still is: "Please explain to me exactly what you can teach in 48 hours that would prepare an adult for a possible confrontation on the street." You have referenced the Vunak program for empty hand and then a largo knife program for escapes from grabs, but you have not given a single clear example of what you actually teach.  And I would have to say that I am really confused about how one can use a knife to escape a grab, if one does not already have the knife in hand at the time of the grab.  In my experience when one has been grabbed, there is usually a tug or snatch motion by the assailant.  This would make it difficult to draw and use a even a fixed blade knife before being slapped, punched or pulled into a bear hug, not to mention being put into a an arm bar or theown to the ground.  I am curious about how you do this.  If you do not want to put this information on the forum, you can write me privately. >A "refresher" every 6 months or so is all that is needed after that. I can agree with the latter idea.  No problem. EBrook, The Wicked Western Warlock ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > When prospective students inquire of the difference, I do mention that they > are "generally" the same. But that can easily be discredited by any one > training at any length in the fma's.... Schools will teach differently and progress the student differently, granted. But the end product (i.e. after 15 or 25 years of training) looks -fairly- similar. Yes? No? > ... If you go deeper, will someone training in Escrima really say > they are training in Arnis? Will they? Yes, at least I do all the time. When talking to a Filipino/a I sometimes mention that I teach Eskrima. If they get a puzzled look on their face I explain it is Arnis. If they -still- look puzzled I never follow up with Kali as I know they will not be familiar with that term. :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: To: Subject: Re: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:14:05 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I believe that Heather, Ray, and everyone else's opinions on the differences of Eskrima, Kali, and Arnis can all be valid. I truly believe that there is no definitive response to how each of these terms may differ. There are differences in language as well as in history in addition to training method/application. When I first began training in Doce Pares in Baltimore my teacher responded to this exact same question in a way that I think was helpful for me to understand at the time, and frame in a certain perspective since then. He explained that generally the three terms mean the same thing (or rather refer to the same general thing) such as "karate" often does here, or even how the term "martial arts" is used whether we are referring to blended systems, traditional art forms, or no-holds barred MMA training. The main difference in his words, was that the term "Eskrima" was used more in the northern Philippines, "Arnis" in the middle/Visayas, and "Kali" in the south. While I don't adhere to his explanation verbatim I think that can be one way to understand the use of these terms. "Eskrima" has more of the Spanish influence (i.e. esgrima is fencing in spanish) whereas "Kali" is a term that many southern martial artists have used and claimed to have been taught. Guro Dan Inosanto has mentioned that his teachers in Stockton who had trained in the southern PI called their martial arts "kali". This term could also be tied to certain terminology in Indonesian and Indian martial arts (I'm not certain of the spelling but Kalipare/Kalupayat I believe is the martial art we saw demonstrated at the academy from practitioners who trained in India). "Arnis" itself is more of a modern word which according to some scholars was used later on to try and blanket all FMA's under one common term. I have heard before that "Eskrima" is more stick based and "Kali" is more empty-hand and blade based. Sometimes this is true (Sayoc Kali, Kali Illustrisimo) but I'm sure there are infinite exceptions. Basically what I'm saying is that I feel this is an ongoing controversy with no real and authoritative answer. Some martial artists believe "Kali" is the mother art from which other arts were influenced and developed, others such as Mark Wiley strongly believe that there is no mother art; that each of the various FMA's are uniquely different. All in all, most of the time these terms all refer to Filipino Martial Arts in general. If Heather has been taught the differences according to training application then that is her personal truth and reality. Ray if you have learned that they are all the same then that is your truth; your reality. FMA teachers contradict each other all the time both in terminology as well a in application (i.e. to defang or not to defang the snake). I could go on and on but I guess I'm trying to clarify to the originator of this question, that in general, there ARE differences but mostly these terms refer to the same concept or topic, and any differences you may hear could vary well vary from person to person. Hope that helps. Joe Marana Student, Maphilindo Silat San Miguel Eskrima/Doce Pares Sayoc Kali > > From: Ray Terry > Date: 2004/04/07 Wed PM 01:58:24 CDT > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali > > > When prospective students inquire of the difference, I do mention that they > > are "generally" the same. But that can easily be discredited by any one > > training at any length in the fma's.... > > Schools will teach differently and progress the student differently, granted. > But the end product (i.e. after 15 or 25 years of training) looks -fairly- > similar. Yes? No? > > > ... If you go deeper, will someone training in Escrima really say > > they are training in Arnis? Will they? > > Yes, at least I do all the time. When talking to a Filipino/a I sometimes > mention that I teach Eskrima. If they get a puzzled look on their face I > explain it is Arnis. If they -still- look puzzled I never follow up with > Kali as I know they will not be familiar with that term. :) > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 9 From: DenverAMA@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:29:02 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thank you gentlemen! Joe~ You have put more words to what I already understand and I thank you because I believe it follows a progression that goes deeper down the rabbit hole. I have been there. I enjoy Kali, covering the elements of Escrima/Arnis. I love Sayoc Kali.. none of these will ever leave my personal tool box. My attempt was to answer the question simple with some understanding a non-fma can understand. It is good to answer: They are all the same, if you have the perspective of Kali. It is also good to explain the sub systems this is something everyone universally can understand. To go deeper is what I touched on... but you have put eloquently Joe. The culture and time frames, the instructors. Bottom line is I want to be better and I want to make others better, so unless its specifically dogging an individual my motive and intent is to be helpful in a practical way. Thanks for you input Joe, You too Ray~ Shine, Heather MonDee www.denverama.com if the site us unresponsive its because we are changing servers :-) > I believe that Heather, Ray, and everyone else's opinions on the > differences of Eskrima, Kali, and Arnis can all be valid. I truly believe that there > is no definitive response to how each of these terms may differ. There are > differences in language as well as in history in addition to training > method/application. > > When I first began training in Doce Pares in Baltimore my teacher responded > to this exact same question in a way that I think was helpful for me to > understand at the time, and frame in a certain perspective since then. He > explained that generally the three terms mean the same thing (or rather refer to the > same general thing) such as "karate" often does here, or even how the term > "martial arts" is used whether we are referring to blended systems, > traditional art forms, or no-holds barred MMA training. The main difference in his > words, was that the term "Eskrima" was used more in the northern Philippines, > "Arnis" in the middle/Visayas, and "Kali" in the south. While I don't adhere > to his explanation verbatim I think that can be one way to understand the use > of these terms. > > "Eskrima" has more of the Spanish influence (i.e. esgrima is fencing in > spanish) whereas "Kali" is a term that many southern martial artists have used > and claimed to have been taught. Guro Dan Inosanto has mentioned that his > teachers in Stockton who had trained in the southern PI called their martial arts > "kali". This term could also be tied to certain terminology in Indonesian > and Indian martial arts (I'm not certain of the spelling but > Kalipare/Kalupayat I believe is the martial art we saw demonstrated at the academy from > practitioners who trained in India). "Arnis" itself is more of a modern word which > according to some scholars was used later on to try and blanket all FMA's > under one common term. I have heard before that "Eskrima" is more stick based > and "Kali" is more empty-hand and blade based. Sometimes this is true (Sayoc > Kali, Kali Illustrisimo) but I'm sure there are infinite exceptions. > > Basically what I'm saying is that I feel this is an ongoing controversy with > no real and authoritative answer. Some martial artists believe "Kali" is > the mother art from which other arts were influenced and developed, others such > as Mark Wiley strongly believe that there is no mother art; that each of the > various FMA's are uniquely different. All in all, most of the time these > terms all refer to Filipino Martial Arts in general. > > If Heather has been taught the differences according to training application > then that is her personal truth and reality. Ray if you have learned that > they are all the same then that is your truth; your reality. FMA teachers > contradict each other all the time both in terminology as well a in application > (i.e. to defang or not to defang the snake). > > I could go on and on but I guess I'm trying to clarify to the originator of > this question, that in general, there ARE differences but mostly these terms > refer to the same concept or topic, and any differences you may hear could > vary well vary from person to person. Hope that helps. > > Joe Marana > Student, > Maphilindo Silat > San Miguel Eskrima/Doce Pares > Sayoc Kali --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest