Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 07:28:05 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #147 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Eskrima digest, Children and Martial arts (Benjamin Lawson) 2. Re: Kali (Benjamin Lawson) 3. Re: kali arnis escrima (DenverAMA@aol.com) 4. Re: Re: Eskrima digest, Children and Martial arts (DenverAMA@aol.com) 5. Re: Mang Ben's legacy and question for Bot Jocano (Felipe Jocano) 6. Re: "same,same" (Mike Casto) 7. Re: Kali (pvittorelli) 8. Reply: (Steven Lefebvre) 9. kali arnis escrima (Emil J. Fisk) 10. RE: Kali (Young Forest) 11. Kali (Thompsonf@aol.com) 12. Sundry comments (Marc Denny) 13. Re: Kali (Aaron Alejandro) 14. Re: kali arnis escrima (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 23:10:41 -0500 From: Benjamin Lawson To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Children and Martial arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I don't know about a full-blown FMA cirriculum for kids, but my son and the rest of the kids in his 4-8 year-old class really seem to enjoy doing siniwali drills (w/o sticks). anbllc@dslextreme.com wrote: >I know in the past there was a discussion on this subject, but they >posting didn't help. So, I want to ask these questions. What is a general >or good cirriculum for children in FMA? Can someone give me a good >structured format for teaching children. Thanks in advance. > >Tony >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 23:12:16 -0500 From: Benjamin Lawson To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Yes, at least I do all the time. When talking to a Filipino/a I sometimes >mention that I teach Eskrima. If they get a puzzled look on their face I >explain it is Arnis. If they -still- look puzzled I never follow up with >Kali as I know they will not be familiar with that term. :) > > My in-laws are Filipino (Kampanpangan (sp?)), and the only term that any of them recognized was Arnis. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: DenverAMA@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 00:54:45 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali arnis escrima To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net LOL, Gordon~ great email. Made me chuckle. (re: "right answer" ;-) I learn a great deal from this forum, and there is a wealth of knowledge among the people here. I am still with you and to answer your question, yes: the 7th subsystem of Lacoste Inosanto Kali is ... ut oh here I go.. in "general terms" the empty hand category. Thats how we start out-English terms. Under this category there are at least 7 other categories. Dumog, layug, buno dteschon = grappling in English is one of them, yes to the ground. I believe there are others on this forum that will have input as well. Best to you Heather www.denverama.com > f youre still with me, just a question for Heather. When it comes to the 12 > subsystems of Kali, is there a grappling component? I dont just mean > takedowns and joint locks. Im talking right down on the ground type of stuff. My > guro's system has this component and aside from Gat Puno Baet, I havent heard > any claim of a Dumog system which has this. My instructor is from the Visayan > island of Aklan, so the remoteness of the area might have something to do with > the rarity of the art. I guess he would know better than me, EH? > Have a great day everybody. > Gordon --__--__-- Message: 4 From: DenverAMA@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 00:57:52 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Children and Martial arts To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Tony~ Are you teaching your children? Are you an instructor in the fma, and looking to expand to children as a client base? Heather www.denverama.com > I know in the past there was a discussion on this subject, but they > posting didn't help. So, I want to ask these questions. What is a general > or good cirriculum for children in FMA? Can someone give me a good > structured format for teaching children. Thanks in advance. > > Tony > _______________________________________________ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:13:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Mang Ben's legacy and question for Bot Jocano To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kasamang Jay, Unang una, maraming maraming salamat sa iyong pakikiramay sa pamilya at mga estudyante ni Maestro Elmer Ybanez. First of all, thank you for the condolences you extended to the family and students of the late Maestro Elmer Ybanez. So sorry I responded this late - the last few days have been hectic for me. I will post the list you requested below within a few days - I will have to consult Mang Ben's book for the list of his first generation students. Regards, Jay --- jay de leon wrote: > Nakikiramay po, sa pamilya, mga istudiyante at > kaibigan ni Maestro Elmer > Ybanez. > Condolences to the family, students and friends of > Maestro Elmer Ybanez. > > Truly another great loss to the FMA family. > > Bot, I know you've probably been asked many times > before, but can you tell > us who are the remaining "first" generation Maestros > left in Mang Ben's > lineage, or Maestro Elmer's contemporaries, and > where they are? If you are > so inclined, you can also mention the "second" > generation players and where > they are, which would include you. > > Salamat po, > Jay de Leon > > _________________________________________________________________ > Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! > Multiple plans available. > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] "same,same" Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:48:02 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Trust your instructor - but don't take it as "the gospel truth." Seems to me that it's like anything else in life. Take an automobile accident. You question 20 witnesses. It's almost a guarantee that no 2 witnesses saw exactly the same thing. And the more detail you look for, the more the stories will diverge. Are any of them lying? Possibly. But most likely not. They're telling you honestly what they saw - or, rather, what they perceived. History is the same thing - but on a larger scale. And when it's something that relies at all on oral tradition, the problem is mulitiplied many times. Even written records aren't infallible, though - after all, "history is written by the victors." And even if the writer is being completely objective, it's still that writer's perception of the thing. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "jason couture" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 8:35 PM Subject: [Eskrima] "same,same" > Hi - I'm glad that someone brought up the > Kali,Eskrima,Arnis topic because, I grew up learning > both sides of the tale (same/different). Some people > would tell me that the names all ment the same thing > but, then I would read that Kali was the mother art. > I've also been told that Kali, Eskrima, Arnis were all > different with special attention to different > techniques (blade or short stick, long stick, or > joint-locks). Now I have to wonder who to trust? > > ===== > **JASON COUTURE** > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway > http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "pvittorelli" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 05:37:22 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kali is a martial art that is said to of derived in the philipines ( one of many philipine martial arts) It is a weapons art like most Filipine martial arts. The theory behind Kali is to destroy the weapon of your opponent. If fighting with sticks, the attack would be directed towards the opponents stick hand. If they are punching it would be directed towards the punching limb ( presure points, muscle strikes or arm breaks). Its hard for someone to hit you when you attack their weapon. I train in Maharlika Kuntaw and Kali makes up part of our art. PV > > > I just want to know what is 'Kali' ? I keep hearing > > about it. Can you please describe the art and give me > > more details on it. as of right now i know nothing of > it. _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 10:54:22 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Reply: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, The name you are looking for is Raymond Floro. Marc, Kalis Escrima... very nice ring to it! On the terms, Kali, Arnis and Escrima, To quote Bruce Lee on the use of a name..JKD... "Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net _________________________________________________________________ Limited-time offer: Fast, reliable MSN 9 Dial-up Internet access FREE for 2 months! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&pgmarket=en-us&ST=1/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 20:21:41 +0800 From: "Emil J. Fisk" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] kali arnis escrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, Might get some facts wrong, so bear with me. The idea I generally understood about the differences in names were s Ray stated in the geographical/cultural/linguistic differences. However, keep in mind that nobody even started using the word kali until Placido Yambao's book in the 50's. However, when you speak to someone from the PI, unless they are involved in the FMA themselves, would never have heard of the words escrima/eskrima or kali. Esgrima is the Spanish word for fencing, and arnis is the Tagalog word for fencing. Search the eskrima digest archives and you'll probably find people either saying that kali is from the word kalis or keris. Dan Inosanto claims that it is a shortening of two words meaning "hand motion". Others refer to the Hindu goddess of death/destruction with the same name. Another common mistake is that people often to refer to Kali Illustrisimo. I believe that Tatang and practitioners of his art say that it should be Kalis Illustrisimo. And the other Ray Mark referred to might be Ray Floro, who refers to his martial expression as Floro Fighting Arts. Sincerely, Emil "Can't Remember Details" Fisk ---------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail has been sent via JARING webmail at http://www.jaring.my --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Young Forest" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 13:12:59 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >In some circles each are represented as follows: > >Kali- 12 subsystems or training categories >Eskrima- 1-7 subsystems/areas (single stick, double stick, stick & dagger, >dagger, empty hands, staff, flexible weapons) >Arnis de mano 1-3 subsystems/areas (single stick, double stick, stick & >dagger) Translation: "I practice Kali" Badger Siling Labuyo Arnis _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN Premium. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Thompsonf@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:57:44 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Does it really matter what the art is called? I wasted way too many years of my life doing TKD before I discovered the FMA's (Sayoc Fighting System/SK) a few years ago. This stuff is so great it could be called "happy dragon wear a tutu and dance around-fu" (or any absurd name) and I would still train in it. The name is irrelevant. Thanks for letting me rant. -- Frank --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:22:23 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Sundry comments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net ----- > > When prospective students inquire of the difference, I do mention that they > > are "generally" the same. But that can easily be discredited by any one > > training at any length in the fma's.... > > Schools will teach differently and progress the student differently, granted. > But the end product (i.e. after 15 or 25 years of training) looks -fairly- > similar. Yes? No? In many cases yes, but IMHO some systems produce distinctive "products". > Currently the FMA FAQ has short entries about the following arts. Anyone > care to submit a new art, and entry, to the list? > > Ray Terry URL? > (1) Is anyone here familiar with Robert Redfeather and his system of "Apache > Knife Fighting"? It looks interesting so I wanted to see if anyone here has > trained with him or has his dvds and could give me a run down or review. Is he > affiliated with DBMA as they refer to themselves as the Ghost Dogs I believe? > Thanks. > > - Tyrkon - No connection to DBMA. I'm guessing that the "Ghost" part of their name is a reference to a particularly poignant moment in Native American history. >> > Hi - I'm glad that someone brought up the > Kali,Eskrima,Arnis topic because, I grew up learning > both sides of the tale (same/different). Some people > would tell me that the names all ment the same thing > but, then I would read that Kali was the mother art. > I've also been told that Kali, Eskrima, Arnis were all > different with special attention to different > techniques (blade or short stick, long stick, or > joint-locks). Now I have to wonder who to trust? In the days before credit cards (yes, I'm that old) one could often see on the wall of an establishment "In God We Trust-- everyone else pays cash." and I think it was President Reagan who, when asked about trust in arms controls agreements, said "Trust, but verify." Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Aaron Alejandro" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:46:24 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Frank, Well said. I hate to sound selfish about the martial arts, but -- its all about me. Bruce Lee was right when he taught us to discover our own JKD. Aaron P.S. Sayoc Kali rocks! I've been studying for almost four years. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 8:57 AM Subject: [Eskrima] Kali > Does it really matter what the art is called? I wasted way too many years of > my life doing TKD before I discovered the FMA's (Sayoc Fighting System/SK) a > few years ago. This stuff is so great it could be called "happy dragon wear a > tutu and dance around-fu" (or any absurd name) and I would still train in it. > The name is irrelevant. Thanks for letting me rant. -- Frank > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali arnis escrima To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > The idea I generally understood about the differences in names were s Ray > stated in the geographical/cultural/linguistic differences. However, keep > in mind that nobody even started using the word kali until Placido > Yambao's book in the 50's. Excellent point. Thanks for mentioning that. > However, when you speak to someone from the PI, unless they are involved > in the FMA themselves, would never have heard of the words > escrima/eskrima or kali. Esgrima is the Spanish word for fencing, and > arnis is the Tagalog word for fencing. Not an exhaustive study mind you, but I have talked with many filipino/a. Most had no martial arts training "back home". Many know of arnis, especially when sticks are mentioned. Few have heard the term eskrima. No one yet has ever heard of kali. I do eskrima, but will call it arnis or kali if that helps someone attain the proper mental picture. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest