Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 16:51:05 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #148 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. URL (Ray Terry) 2. Re: ED-11.145 - Controversial Kali (bhubbard@cogentmethod.com) 3. teaching kids FMA (jason couture) 4. what's in a name? (jason couture) 5. Cabales/Inayan Escrima lessons in San Jose/Santa Cruz area (garry bowlds) 6. Re: teaching kids FMA (Aaron Alejandro) 7. Re: Eskrima digest, Children and Martial arts (Erol Weber) 8. Re: anew fma book (JIMSHIDO8@aol.com) 9. GrandMaster Peter G. Urban, Ph.D. passed away (Sierra Foothills Karate) 10. Placido Yambao ? (Ray Terry) 11. Kali...just a name. (steve kohn) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] URL Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Currently the FMA FAQ has short entries about the following arts. Anyone > > care to submit a new art, and entry, to the list? > > > > Ray Terry > > URL? Given in the header of every digest issue... "See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA list at http://MartialArtsResource.com" Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:06:57 -0700 From: bhubbard@cogentmethod.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: ED-11.145 - Controversial Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey, What a way to stir up debate. This list was little slow and now it's on fire! The Kali debate always seems to do that. I think that one of the reasons that I personally get a little bent about the Kali thing is that it is sometimes used as a subtle way to say that styles that call themselves Arnis and Eskrima (Escrima) are somehow inferior. Usually this is done to persuade beginners to do one style of FMA over another. I do Doce Pares and we use the Arnis/Eskrima/Kali terms interchangeably although we definitely favor "eskrima" as the term of choice. The "eskrima" that I do is in no way inferior to the "kali" that somebody else does. To folks "in the know" the terms are interchangeable in the macroscopic sense. My family, who are Manila and Zambales folks, insist that I should use the term "arnis". Partially because in their dialect, Zambal, "eskrima" is a fencing game that they played as kids and also because my grandfather was a maestro of "Arnis De Mano", which by the way to them includes "pisotlero" target shooting. Here in California, when I get calls about my class it's usually for "Kali" or to buy "Kali Sticks". Early on in this thread somebody stated that some of the big systems today that now call themselves Kali used to go by Arnis or Eskrima. Maybe they had an influential teacher who favored that term. Or maybe their family used that term in their system. Or maybe it is because, for marketing purposes, "Kali" perhaps sounded a little more "badassed" than the other terms to native English speakers, is easier to spell, and references a powerful and exotic hindu deity. The difference between the terms is more a difference between styles and systems than terms. In the CMA you have Bak Mei, Choy Lay Fut, Hung Gar, and Wing Chun. They are all very different systems, yet they are all Chuan Fa, Kung Fu, and they are all Shaolin arts. Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali are our generic terms and within the different styles they have different esoteric meanings. Be cool, Bart Hubbard Capital Doce Pares www.capitaldocepares.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:12:30 -0700 (PDT) From: jason couture To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] teaching kids FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello - I never liked teaching kids (under the age of 15) the FMA. I believe the tools used in the trade are to dangerous for young kids to be swinging around or poking at each other. Kids are kids and like to fool around (rightly so) but, I'll be dammed if their going to fool around with sticks in my care! Now, it is true that some kids are more adult then other kids, yes, that would become a judgment call and with the permission of the child's parents. In these cases I use to "feel out" the character of the child. As training went along I would make a decision if I would continue or not. A few people who read this might have a negative response to this because, they run a school for money and they depend on the income. Kids make up a big percentage of MA classes, which instructors are not going to turn down because, it pays the bills. I no longer teach for money (I have a good job) and so, I can pick and choose who I feel will best portray the values and morals I think is important. The reason I just said all that is because I'm not happy to say but, I've trained a dirt bag or two in the past. That is why I'm more judgmental now. Live and learn. Should kids learn MA? YES!!!! I just don't feel that the FMA is the best place for them to start. The FMA is very violent (cutting,breaking,stabbing,hitting with sticks) it takes a little more maturity to handle this knowledge and training. To this day I still feel strange teaching people how to cut and stab other people. All of this is just my opinion,though. Take care! ===== **JASON COUTURE** __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:32:31 -0700 (PDT) From: jason couture To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] what's in a name? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi - Mr.Frank, sorry but, I don't agree with you when you said that the name doesn't matter. When you talk to other people or are teaching them about the art that you love so much, it's good to be as knowledgeable as possible about the subject. So as to not sound like a fool. When people start wondering if you really know what your talking about, you slowly lose their respect. Not the position I'd like to be in, eh? Yes, I do agree with you about the FMA being a great art to study! May your blade never rust! ===== **JASON COUTURE** __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:44:05 -0700 (PDT) From: garry bowlds To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Cabales/Inayan Escrima lessons in San Jose/Santa Cruz area Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, I'm back teaching Escrima (Cabales/Inayan) in the Bay Area once again. The group class is held on Saturdays at 10am at Mitchell Park in Palo Alto. I am also available for private lessons in the South Bay and Santa Cruz areas. Go to www.escrimador.tk or www.geocities.com/gurogarry for more info about my background. Guro Garry Bowlds __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Aaron Alejandro" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] teaching kids FMA Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 13:56:58 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jason, Per your comments regarding teaching kids, I think you're partially right. It does depend on the child. However, if MA training is about having a well-rounded self-defense (offense) in the world we live in, doesn't it speak to our efforts to give those children who can handle it as much, and appropriate, training as necessary? I think you would agree, as would most parents, they still need skills that work. FMA, JKD in particular, provides skills in all ranges, empty hand, and weapons. It probably also has a lot to do with the instructor, school, location and enviornment in which the skills are being taught. I too have a great job and pick and choose who I train and to what level. However, the young people I train are trained according to their level of maturity. I don't believe I would teach a bully TKD (boot to the head) no more than I would teach one to hit a bone with a stick. I'm not disagreeing with your comments - just expanding on what you wrote. Many of those who watch this forum know my son and are very aware of capabilities. He is nine and a very accomplished JKD student. I am pleased to say that, knock on wood, we have never -- and I emphasize never -- had a problem with him doing, or more importantly sharing, any of his JKD style outside of the MA school classroom. But, that's what I want him to have should he ever be called upon to defend himself or anyone else. Ultimately, my point is to defend the FMA as they relate to kids and say, "yes they should be taught -- accordingly and appropriately". As a parent and instructor, I take pride in the promotion of this style to the next generation(s). I want my son, and daughter, to find their JKD and the FMA are our chosen means to get there. Aaron ----- Original Message ----- From: "jason couture" To: Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 11:12 AM Subject: [Eskrima] teaching kids FMA > Hello - I never liked teaching kids (under the age of > 15) the FMA. I believe the tools used in the trade > are to dangerous for young kids to be swinging around > or poking at each other. Kids are kids and like to > fool around (rightly so) but, I'll be dammed if their > going to fool around with sticks in my care! Now, it > is true that some kids are more adult then other kids, > yes, that would become a judgment call and with the > permission of the child's parents. In these cases I > use to "feel out" the character of the child. As > training went along I would make a decision if I would > continue or not. A few people who read this might > have a negative response to this because, they run a > school for money and they depend on the income. Kids > make up a big percentage of MA classes, which > instructors are not going to turn down because, it > pays the bills. I no longer teach for money (I have a > good job) and so, I can pick and choose who I feel > will best portray the values and morals I think is > important. The reason I just said all that is because > I'm not happy to say but, I've trained a dirt bag or > two in the past. That is why I'm more judgmental now. > Live and learn. Should kids learn MA? YES!!!! I just > don't feel that the FMA is the best place for them to > start. The FMA is very violent > (cutting,breaking,stabbing,hitting with sticks) it > takes a little more maturity to handle this knowledge > and training. To this day I still feel strange > teaching people how to cut and stab other people. All > of this is just my opinion,though. Take care! > > ===== > **JASON COUTURE** > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway > http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Erol Weber" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:31:19 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Children and Martial arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Tony, In response to your question about teaching children FMA, I believe the real (and vague) answer has to be that it comes down to context. I teach children and adult programs, and have a varied background and lot's of exposure to different Filipino and Indonesion arts. Like lots of martial artists though, I started out in TKD, so I use the kicking and calesthenics format with a bit of a JKD approach. I find it builds good cardio and coordination, plus has some of the fancy and fun appearance that kids needs to stay interested. For empty hands, I use FMA concepts and footwork, so that I am not teaching them false concepts. Whenever someone asks me why I want to teach children FMA from the beginning, it really brings the principle to a point. It is often much more difficult to untrain counteractive habits than simply build in the correct ones from the start. When I do bridge into the sticks (or edged weapons) though, I take it more to the self defense side, as opposed to simply martial arts. Martials arts, the way I define it, are for building a strong mind, body, and spirit, as well as the connection between them. We focus on developing ourselves and getting better, stronger, and building on more and more. When I step into the other realm and begin talking about street self defense, then I bring in the FMA. I begin with the angles of attack and we practice striking in those angles. Then, we utilize the baston (stick) for coordination drills, sinawali, and practicing countering movements. Using the stick in the beginning levels is something unique to the FMA, and children are fascinated with it. The only drawback is that many insurance companies won't cover, or really stick you for, a children's "weapons" program. Therefore, I am careful to try and remove the dangerous aspects of training (in the public classroom setting) for children. I take great pains to explain that it is a baston, to be respected, and understood as a training tool, not a weapon. Once again, it's all in the context. So, when I have an insurance agent try to pin me on a weapons program, I can firmly say that what I teach in the class is not weaponry, but rather coordination and concepts. We have fun circular arguments. Rather, I focus on drills and counters where they train in isolated, structured progressions. This way, they can still learn the movement and the concepts. I also recommend using some inexpensive padded bastons - Century carries some that are $3-$4 each - whenever they are just starting, or beginning to feed one another. For sinawali though, rattan is a must. The rhythm and sound of the contact is half of the experience. As each student progresses, then an individualized approach is necessary. The one thing that I believe separates the FMA from other styles is the need for individualized instruction. Since there are so many variables and types of energy, it takes careful evaluation of each students movements and learning process to move them up the levels of progression. In other words, as you move the students toward stick to stick, empty hand versus stick, or whatever, your teaching methods need to meet their unique needs. Then, when it's time to start to apply, and this can vary greatly depending upon the individual and what their parents wish them to be exposed to, we can take it to a private basis. In a private environment, focusing on one or two students at a time, you can begin to approach the combative aspects. I would not recommend trying to apply practical training to more than two at a time. Since you can work them one with the other, you can always watch closely how they engage and what kind of force is applied. The moment you take your eyes off of a child, who has the implied approval that now is the time to step up the practical work, he will test it out. I also recommend that the first couple of sessions are done in isolation without parental involvement. Once the students have a bit of a comfort level with what they are doing, parents can breathe easier. At first, you can sometimes feel their tension from across the room. Feel free to send me feedback or questions about this, as I am constantly learning and progressing myself, and enjoy discussing... Isang Mundo, Isang Tribo Erol Weber Cabales Serrada Escrima ----------------------------------------------------------- Original Message: Message: 6 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:28:30 -0700 (PDT) From: anbllc@dslextreme.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Children and Martial arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I know in the past there was a discussion on this subject, but they posting didn't help. So, I want to ask these questions. What is a general or good cirriculum for children in FMA? Can someone give me a good structured format for teaching children. Thanks in advance. Tony --__--__-- Message: 8 From: JIMSHIDO8@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 17:38:32 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: anew fma book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A new fma book will be out in may the title is Classic Arnis- the legacy of Placido Yambao.The book is written by Master Rey Galang of Bakbakan International.Yambosbookwas pubished over 50 yrs.ago .The new book contains over 500 photos and selected materials.this book unravels the enigma surranding yambo,s book.It is a book every fma should have in his /her collection . For info. go to www.bakbakan. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Sierra Foothills Karate" To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:59:46 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] GrandMaster Peter G. Urban, Ph.D. passed away Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net GrandMaster Peter G. Urban, Ph.D. passed away We lost yet another one of the truly greats Sensei Peter Urban passed away last night. Yes he was controversial but at his own choosing. Yes he was talented ask the Yamaguichi brothers. Yes he was a great teacher ask his students. Yes he was a great student ask his Sensei's who have passed away as well. Yes he was my friend and a teacher of mine ask me. He will be missed dearly by all who knew how truly great he was and he was one of the greats. The last great Karate icon of the 20th century has passed on... GrandMaster Peter G. Urban, Ph.D. passed away early this morning, April 7, 2004. He Lived Unfraid, and he Died Unfraid! His final act was a Lion like Roar to heaven to announce to his peers and teachers that he was on his way. GOD BLESS YOU SENSEI...MAY YOU REST IN PEACE --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free by NET OPS Security Group, OST, System Engineer Dept. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.655 / Virus Database: 420 - Release Date: 4/8/2004 --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] Placido Yambao ? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > However, keep in mind that nobody even started using > the word kali until Placido Yambao's book in the 50's. Do you know how Yambao uses the term Kali in the above book? Is it simply the term he used for Eskrima in this early work or ??? Just curious as to what context he uses the term Kali. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "steve kohn" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 00:18:16 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali...just a name. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, While I hate quoting Bruce Lee for fear of sounding like the people that make his make his legacy look bad, this paraphrased quote seems relevant for this thread. "Man, the creative being will always be more important than any established style or system."  -Bruce Lee Besides, most (not all) of us should probably call what we do Filipino/American Martial Arts so as to more accurately describe the influences involved. Even that doesnt matter though as long as we keep creating. That is the bottom line.   Best to all, Steve Kohn     >From: "Aaron Alejandro" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali >Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:46:24 -0500 > >Frank, > >Well said.  I hate to sound selfish about the martial arts, but -- its all >about me.  Bruce Lee was right when he taught us to discover our own JKD. > >Aaron > >P.S. Sayoc Kali rocks!  I've been studying for almost four years. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 8:57 AM >Subject: [Eskrima] Kali > > > > Does it really matter what the art is called? I wasted way too many years >of > > my life doing TKD before I discovered the FMA's (Sayoc Fighting System/SK) >a > > few years ago. This stuff is so great it could be called "happy dragon >wear a > > tutu and dance around-fu" (or any absurd name) and I would still train in >it. > > The name is irrelevant. Thanks for letting me rant. -- Frank > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list,  1800 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list,  1800 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Multiple plans available. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest