Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 03:01:50 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #150 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1800 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Placido Yambao ? (Felipe Jocano) 2. ? (Marc Denny) 3. Re: the Kali/Eskrima/Arnis debate (Kes41355@aol.com) 4. Eskrima, kali or arnis? (Cecilia Vivaldi) 5. Re: Kali (nephalim1@netscape.net) 6. RE: SEMINAR REMINDER for those in INDIANA (Stickfighter87@aol.com) 7. Re: Placido Yambao ? (nephalim1@netscape.net) 8. Good Friday (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 23:34:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Placido Yambao ? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Ray, The actual title of the book in question is Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis ni Placido Yambao at isinaayos ni Buenaventura Mirafuente (The Knowledge of the Game(?)/Sport(?) of Arnis by Placido Yambao and edited by Buenaventura Mirafuente). You might find it interesting to note that the section on the history of arnis in Yambao's book was actually written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, his editor (Maikling kasaysayan ng arnis ni Buenaventura Mirafuente/Short history of arnis by Buenaventura Mirafuente, pp 9-14). Mirafuente (p. 10) states that kali was the original name of arnis at the time the Spaniards came, but due to the inevitable changes brought about by time and events, it became known by various names in different areas of the Philippines, such as pananandata in Tagalog, pagkalikali in the Cagayan valley especially in the Ibanag-speaking areas, kalirongan in Pangasinan, kaliradman in Bisaya and pangaradman in Ilonggo, and didya in Ilokano, which became also known as kabaroan according to Fr. Gregorio Aglipay. Mirafuente adds further (p. 14)in his endnotes to this chapter, a short discussion on the similarity of the terms kali and kalis, the latter described as the sword used in kali. Mind you, the above is just a short and rough translation/paraphrase of the original Tagalog text... Anyway, it appears that kali used in this sense simply refers to the martial art encountered by the Spaniards at the time of their arrival. Respectfully, Bot P.S. I put game/sport as alternative translations of the word "laro." "Laro" literally means to play, but can also mean a game or a sport. In some contexts, it also means contests or combat. --- Ray Terry wrote: >> > Do you know how Yambao uses the term Kali in the > above book? Is > it simply the term he used for Eskrima in this early > work or ??? > > Just curious as to what context he uses the term > Kali. > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1800 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 05:18:43 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] ? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Phil wrote: > theories abounded. One common story, usually coming > from the Kali/JKD camp was that Kali was the mother > art and all others came from it. My absolute personal > favourite was that Kali was the warrior's art, and > Arnis or Escrima was the Farmer's art, taught to the > common folk in a time of emergency quickly and > therefore not as in depth. > Personaly having followed the debate about the origins > and the use of the term Kali, I dont think the > preceding explanations are valid. I thinks Guy's like > PG Sulite, God Rest His Soul, and Guro Mark Wiley have > succesfully put that to rest with very convincing > research and explanations. I'd quibble with your description of Kali-JKD but life's too short. That said, a question: Upon what are you basing your description of PG Sulite's thoughts on this matter? Woof, Crafty --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 08:51:29 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: the Kali/Eskrima/Arnis debate Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Very nicely stated, Bart, couldn't have said it better myself. I personally get a little irritated when it's hinted that certain styles/systems of "Kali" are superior to Eskrima and Arnis, or are referred to as the "mother art"of all the other FMA's because they claim to have more categories. Irritated because I've been around the FMA's for very nearly 30 years, and back in the day this certain school of "Kali" was called "Eskrima" just like the rest of us. The whole thing about which style has more categories is pretty lame as well, since I was taught that anything an Eskrimador picked up was a viable weapon, due to the arts being taught with universal principles in mind, rather than used only within the confines of specific weapons. This makes the whole discussion of "categories" moot, since my TV remote, a comb, a pencil, all become "categories," and the possibilities become endless. In my own particular style, we use single and double sticks and blades ranging from 6 inches to over 30 inches. Is each measurement another category? Gets a little silly pretty quickly, don't you think? Instead of trying to point out where we differ, we need to stress the similarities in our arts, and make sure we present our arts to the public not in a competitive way, but as strikingly similar views of the same picture. The FMA's are among the most beautiful and effective of all of the martial arts out there, let's not reduce the public's view of us to one of confusion and meaningless posturing ("my art is more complete than yours, since we have more categories"). Personally for me, the deciding factor in the usefulness of an art is how closely your art's central theme sticks to reality, and how real you keep your training. If you aren't mixing it up in class, the point of how many different categories you have doesn't mean very much at all. As the young men I take care of at work would say, "Don't talk about it, BE about it." There's no getting around it, folks,,,the proof is definitely in the pudding. Kim Satterfield Midwest School of Eskrima In a message dated 4/8/04 7:55:49 PM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Hey, > > What a way to stir up debate. This list was little slow and now it's on > fire! > The Kali debate always seems to do that. > > I think that one of the reasons that I personally get a little bent about > the > Kali thing is that it is sometimes used as a subtle way to say that styles > that > call themselves Arnis and Eskrima (Escrima) are somehow inferior. Usually > this > is done to persuade beginners to do one style of FMA over another. I do Doce > Pares and we use the Arnis/Eskrima/Kali terms interchangeably although we > definitely favor "eskrima" as the term of choice. The "eskrima" that I do is > in > no way inferior to the "kali" that somebody else does. > > To folks "in the know" the terms are interchangeable in the macroscopic > sense. > My family, who are Manila and Zambales folks, insist that I should use the > term > "arnis". Partially because in their dialect, Zambal, "eskrima" is a fencing > game > that they played as kids and also because my grandfather was a maestro of > "Arnis > De Mano", which by the way to them includes "pisotlero" target shooting. > Here in > California, when I get calls about my class it's usually for "Kali" or to > buy > "Kali Sticks". > > Early on in this thread somebody stated that some of the big systems today > that > now call themselves Kali used to go by Arnis or Eskrima. Maybe they had an > influential teacher who favored that term. Or maybe their family used that > term > in their system. Or maybe it is because, for marketing purposes, "Kali" > perhaps > sounded a little more "badassed" than the other terms to native English > speakers, is easier to spell, and references a powerful and exotic hindu > deity. > > The difference between the terms is more a difference between styles and > systems > than terms. In the CMA you have Bak Mei, Choy Lay Fut, Hung Gar, and Wing > Chun. > They are all very different systems, yet they are all Chuan Fa, Kung Fu, and > they are all Shaolin arts. Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali are our generic terms > and > within the different styles they have different esoteric meanings. > > Be cool, > > > Bart Hubbard > Capital Doce Pares > www.capitaldocepares.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 08:05:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Cecilia Vivaldi To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Eskrima, kali or arnis? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've been practising since october 2002 in Santiago, Chile. Our group is still a small one, and I might say as far as we know, we are the only ones doing this and learning on a regular basis and in all this time I have heard only two references to FMA from other people. In our beginnings we had no place to train, so we went to the parks. One day we were doing some drills with our teacher and we heard some TKD practitioners say "That's arnis". The second time was when I bought the only two sticks available at a small MA store: they referred to them as Kali. In these days we are trying to increase the number of practitioners, so we use the three words to make FMA known to others- Eskrima Kali Arnis. Cecilia Vivaldi __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:10:46 -0400 From: nephalim1@netscape.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Benjamin Lawson wrote: >My in-laws are Filipino (Kampanpangan (sp?)), and the only term that any >of them recognized was Arnis. I am also Kapampangan (from the province of Pampanga in Central Luzon)and most of us from that region are familiar with the term Arnis rather than the other terms. My friends here in NY (mostly from Manila and some other provinces in Luzon)also use the same term (Arnis). Even PG Mat Marinas used Arnis to the Lanada system. PG Marinas is a native of Nueva Ecija which is also a province of Luzon (northern part of the archipelago). >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list,  1800 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________________________________________ Introducing the New Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Stickfighter87@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 12:25:04 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RE: SEMINAR REMINDER for those in INDIANA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just a reminder that Guru Mike Casto will be in Muncie, Ind. tomorrow on April 10 conducting his second return to share with us his expertise in the martial arts of Eskrido, Shen Chuan, Sikal and much much more.....Anyone in the area that is interested please come on out it will be a good time. http://impactacademy.com/upcoming_seminars.php Cory Ballinger --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 12:41:23 -0400 From: nephalim1@netscape.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Placido Yambao ? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Emil J. Fisk" wrote: >I'm uncertain as to how it is used since I've never read the book myself. >The original language is in Tagalog(?) and something is always lost in >the translation. However, a quick search on the web will yield several >companies selling an English translation to the book. Emil, if you have the exact quote, maybe some of us who can speak Tagalog might be able to assist in the translation to english. >---------------------------------------------------------------- >This e-mail has been sent via JARING webmail at http://www.jaring.my >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list,  1800 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________________________________________ Introducing the New Netscape Internet Service. Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] Good Friday Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hope everyone had a good Good Friday and has a great Easter. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest