Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 08:40:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #190 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Cacoy Canete Book (John Paredes) 2. Re: Cutting (Mike Casto) 3. Re: Cutting (steven ledwith) 4. Re: Kettlebells, Cutting Practice, & Crunch Time (steven ledwith) 5. Cutting (Sam Bell Jr) 6. Re:Kettlebells, Cutting Practice, & Crunch Time (Jay Minnix) 7. Re: Cutting (Todd Ellner) 8. Tragic Events in Iraq (Aaron Alejandro) 9. Re: Cutting (Ken Ingram) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 21:00:40 -0700 (PDT) From: John Paredes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Cacoy Canete Book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I was wondering if anyone can help me find a copy of the book " The Fastest Olisi Fighter"? I apprecaite the help, J.P. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Cutting Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 23:58:14 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'd guess it was a dull blade - and intentional. They are, after all, terrorists. The more graphic and disturbing, the better - from their perspective. But even with a sharp blade, I don't think it would be an easy thing to do it the way they did it. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Terry" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 9:01 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Cutting > Difficult topic, but here goes... > > On the thread of cutting practice... Not sure how many of you viewed the > tape of the beheading of Mr. Nick Berg (RIP). It is of low video quality > and makes one ill to view, but there you are. I viewed it. > > One thing that I noticed was just how difficult it seemed for the a-hole > terrorist to accomplish that task. Dull knife? Bad cutting angle? Not > sure, I didn't really want to view it multiple times to analyze closer. > > Comments? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 05:40:40 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Cutting To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net --- Ray Terry wrote: > Difficult topic, but here goes... > > On the thread of cutting practice... Not sure how > many of you viewed the > tape of the beheading of Mr. Nick Berg (RIP). It is > of low video quality > and makes one ill to view, but there you are. I > viewed it. > > One thing that I noticed was just how difficult it > seemed for the a-hole > terrorist to accomplish that task. Dull knife? Bad > cutting angle? Not > sure, I didn't really want to view it multiple times > to analyze closer. > > Comments? > > Ray Terry I have seen the video. Take these factors into account. 1. we don't know how sharp the knife was. 2. A human neck is a lot to cut through 5"+ diameter. 3. There was no velocity behind the cutting. 4. The teterrortistsant to put forth as much shock value as possible so they in effect took their time. It is a gruesome thing to watch but I have seen things like this before. To the people that did this, it is almost an everyday thing in their culture. Being beheaded is fit punishment for the "enemy" and has a long history in Islam. To them it is worse to be humiliated like those prisoners were at ababuhghraiband don't think for a minute that our side didn't know that. For all we know those US soldiers who humiliated the Iraqi prisoners are being used show the Islamic world how our society deals with crime. But back to cutting, there is plenty of historical evidence demonstrating that heads, arms, and legs are easily cut off with SHARP sword or long knife (18" plus) when good mechanics and velocity are used. From the test cutting I have performed on harvested game animals when butchering I know for a fact that a hair shaving sharp blade of 5" or more will take an arm clean off. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 05:53:31 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kettlebells, Cutting Practice, & Crunch Time To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net --- BuBuzrover Thanks to all who responded to me question about > kekettlebellsI > recently bought some mountain acreage; looking for a > way to get in a > comprehensive workout without having to head down > the hill. Want > something that, if I leave out in the shed, won't > get gummed up by some > exposure to nature, and that has a small foot print. > KeKettlebellsook > to fit the bill, but seem overpriced. I liked the > bag of rice idea > someone suggested, though I expect the neighborhood > black bears will, > too. As that may be, perhaps improvisation is the > way to go until I > find a kekettlebellype device that doesn't offend my > frugal > sensibilities. > > Wanted to chime in on cutting practice, too. Think > the folks who talked > about butchering game are on the right track: > nothing does as good a > job or replicating skin, muscle, fat and sinew as > does skin muscle, fat > and sinew. After all my years in the restaurant > business, moreover, I > am something of a cutting practice snob. The first > thing you notice > about a new guy in a kitchen is how he handles a > blade, and it ain't > all chchoppinlettuce. Lobster tail, carving inside > round, prepping > ginger, cutting MaMahiaMahiparing garnishes, and so > on all require > vastly different knife skills. In other words, there > isn't a single one > size fits all type of cutting practice out there > that will > comprehensively teach you how to use a blade. > > Indeed, insights come from unexpected sources. I use > to practice > thrusts on bales of recycled cardboard my kitchens > generated. For > reasons too arcane to explain lids from 3 quart > (#10) cans often end up > in boxes that are then bailed. So there I'd be, > thrusting away at this > big bundle of cardboard, and my blade would hit a > buried steel can lid. > Fun would ensue: my hand might ride up the handle to > the blade, or I'd > wrench my wrist, or the blade would get hung up in > the lid, or > something else educational would occur. Bottom line > is that I learned > fully committed thrusts against unknown targets is > not a very good > idea. Though most folks don't walk around with #10 > can lids in their > clothing, cell phones, wallets, et alalan > unexpectedly replicate a > similar learning experience that no practice target > assembled with > materials from the Home Depot will prepare you for. > > I'm curious what GaGatuPunobAbonaBaethinks about > cutting practice. I > know, sir, you've spent a lot of time in the > kitchen; how do you have > your students learn to cut with a live blade? > > Finally, I'd like to thank SPSPCaTaimangaloor his > dispatch from the > front lines. We don't very often get to hear the > unfiltered voice of a > front line soldier. My respects to you sir, and to > everyone serving in > Old Ironsides. > > Regards, > > BuBuzrover You are right about unknown targets. Major bones of the human body will stop a folder sized knife, and without a guard on your blade ... ouch! But that being said human ribs will present no problem to any quality knife. I have recently viewed a DVDVDrom a well known Kali group where they show thrusting the blade into the ribs in an odd grip and then twisting the blade to get through the rib. I my opinion and experience this is not necessary, it looks cool but is no more effective than a normal thrust for going through the rib bones. If the pressure is really on most will just pump the blade however they can. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Sam Bell Jr" To: Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:01:34 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Cutting Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I too watched that horrific video and my guess is that they either had a very dull knife, or purposely took their time to inflict the maximum amount of suffering. I say get some Indian Gurkha's and turn them loose in Iraq. Let them show the locals how to remove heads! Sam --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:33:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Minnix To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Kettlebells, Cutting Practice, & Crunch Time Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Buz, Having some mountain property is great for some good, old-fashioned functional training. Some basic tools in your shed (axes, sledge hammers, etc.) along with readily available environmental objects (big and small rocks, logs of various sizes) make getting a good functional workout pretty easy. Go to a tire store and get 4 or 5 used tires (they'll usually give them to you if you promise not to bring them back). Stack these around an old tree stump (cutting a tree to 6 - 7 ft height is even better, but you'll need more tires) and wail away with a sledge hammer. Find a good 20 lb rock and throw it for distance and height (one hand and both hands). Pick up and carry heavier rocks for distance or time, same for logs. Get a dragging harness (ironmind makes an excellent one) and a length of chain and drag logs - drag them uphill when it gets too easy. There's tons of stuff you can improvise. Just remember to treat it like a workout, not like work. When you are doing this kind of stuff for work, are trying to tax yourself as little as possible - when you work out, you are trying to tax yourself to a much greater extent. For example, when hitting tires with a hammer, maybe do 1 minute from the right side, 1 minute rest, 1 minute from the left side, 1 minute rest, repeat. Next time go for 1 and a half minutes. Or hit the tires as many times as you can in 1 minute, and try to add more hits next time. Brooks Kubrick's book "Dinosaur Training" has some good suggestions for improvised training. Good luck Jay Minnix ===== Jay Minnix jiminnix@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 07:50:42 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Cutting Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Difficult topic, but here goes... >On the thread of cutting practice... Not sure how many of you viewed the >tape of the beheading of Mr. Nick Berg (RIP). It is of low video quality >and makes one ill to view, but there you are. I viewed it. >One thing that I noticed was just how difficult it seemed for the a-hole >terrorist to accomplish that task. Dull knife? Bad cutting angle? Not >sure, I didn't really want to view it multiple times to analyze closer. >Comments? First comment: That's in damned poor taste, Ray. Next time a man beats his wife to death remind me to comment on the technical fine points of his punching and kicking style for the list. Second: I was unwilling to watch it more than once (with the sound turned off thank-you-very-much) but noticed a couple things. 1) He didn't slice as with a sword or chop as with an axe. He used the knife more like a poorly designed saw. 2) If he'd ever sacrificed an animal as part of religious observance or slaughtered one for food he would have done a much cleaner and faster job. It's obvious that he wanted to kill his Jew in a slow and gruesome fashion for the impressionable young fanatics who would be watching him. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Aaron Alejandro" To: Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 10:25:30 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Tragic Events in Iraq Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Terry, Please accept my greatest respects for the forum you provide for martial artist to discuss topics important to our various styles, traditions and training concepts. You requested comments, so here are mine. While I enjoy good discussion and politics, I would request that we do not engage a discussion regarding the beheading of Mr. Berg. Simply put, it was tragic. To have a discussion as to whether the knife was sharp or not, is absurd! We lost an American life! Whether it was to a firearm, bladed weapon, on video or not, the loss of life is a part of war, but does not have to be a part of a martial arts forum. For what purpose other than to evaluate the method, sharpness of weapon or death timetable? As professional martial artists, we should already know these things and take heed to the "reality" of the outcome of practicing with such weapons. I simply request that we don't have the discussion on the forum out of respect to Mr. Berg's family -- if for no other reason. There is no such thing as an atrocity of war....war is an atrocity. Our American soldiers are there doing a job and we should support them whole heartedly. I enjoyed the forum discussion about the soldiers that fought back some Iraqi troops with bladed weapons! That's good discussion! Discussions regarding the tragic events of Mr. Berg should not be a part of a forum I have grown fond of reading. Let us rise above any such discussion. With Great Respect to the Berg Family and all of our soldiers serving this country, Aaron Alejandro --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 19 May 2004 09:04:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken Ingram To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Cutting Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I haven't seen the video and I have heard enough about it to have no desire to watch it. I spent 4 years in the Marines and managed to finish my tour before Panama. Nothing I learned then or up to now will ever prepare me for the viciousness that human beings are capable of inflicting upon each other. 1. What was the intent of the person who killed Berg? a. Did they intend to inflict pain in the most gruesome manner possible? (1) If not a long sword with a hard down stroke would have severed his jugular on one side, even if dull, assuming the speed was appropriate. (2) If the intention WAS to inflict pain any further discussion is ridiculous and pointless. b. Did they intend to enrage the viewers in the most effective way possible? (1) If not, they succeeded in doing just that. (2) If they did, further discussion is pointless 2. Killing another person is pretty simple. If your intent is to kill someone, discussing the finer points of cutting is better served on animal carcasses (as opposed to a living creature). If you eat meat, use different grades of implement with various states of sharpness on the raw steak. It should answer the question. To all of those offended by the question: Get a grip and lighten up. The reality of life is that sometimes people have to ask the question to learn what questions are reasonable to ask. Frankly, there is no stupid question, just stupid responses. On Tue, 18 May 2004, Ray Terry wrote: > Difficult topic, but here goes... > > On the thread of cutting practice... Not sure how many of you viewed the > tape of the beheading of Mr. Nick Berg (RIP). It is of low video quality > and makes one ill to view, but there you are. I viewed it. > > One thing that I noticed was just how difficult it seemed for the a-hole > terrorist to accomplish that task. Dull knife? Bad cutting angle? Not > sure, I didn't really want to view it multiple times to analyze closer. > > Comments? > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > -- ============================================================================ As recently as 1972, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia said that the jury has an "...unreviewable and irreversible power... to acquit in disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial judge...." -- (US vs Dougherty, 473 F 2d 1113, 1139 (1972)) http://www.caught.net http://fija.org --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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