Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:39:15 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #203 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Western Fencing (Stephen Lamade) 2. Questions about manners - not really hypothetical (Todd Ellner) 3. Off topic, irrelevant, and worth reading (Todd Ellner) 4. Fencing as a Martial Art (argyll@comcast.net) 5. Re: Questions about manners - not really hypothetical (Jared Dame) 6. Western Fencing (GatPuno@aol.com) 7. Re: Western Fencing (ulfhead@integrity.com) 8. Re: Western Fencing (steven ledwith) 9. Re: Is this a legitamate martial art? (Sean Putt) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 03:19:20 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Western Fencing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "I wouldn't mind doing a bit if I thought it was going to be beneficial, but being so keen on the FMAs, I wouldn't want to devote too much time as my Kali would suffer. They do six-week beginners' courses, an hour and a half a week or so. My question is this: would this short period be enough to supplement my FMA?" I know two FMA teachers (both friends of mine) who have devoted substantial parts of their training careers to western fencing. Both are excellent FMA's and fencers, respectively. What they have both shown me has taught me to respect western fencing, and I recommend that you take the introductory course that you describe above - if only to get a window on what a Filipino martial artists may have faced (hypothetically) against a western swordsman circa 1700 - 1900. The translation from foil, epee, and sabre to rapier or rapier-sword may not be an exact one, but it is close enough to approximate the kinds of tactical issues that arise when western sword is pitted against Filipino weaponry. One suggestion that I would have is to go ahead and take the course - and then try to use what you learned in a semi-sparring drill against a committed FMA opponent (with proper armour and protection of course!). You may be pleasantly surprised at how difficult it is to get past someone with a good understanding of how to keep his point on target. Best, Steve Lamade --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 09:41:22 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: , Subject: [Eskrima] Questions about manners - not really hypothetical Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This is one of those questions that it feels strange to even ask because it is so far over the line. But it should be amusing to hear what people have to say. What would your immediate reaction be if you were in a social situation and someone grabbed (or tried to grab) the knife out of your pocket? Would it make any difference if they handed it back to you with a big grin and an exaggerated display of manners? How about if it was at a martial arts school where you were a guest or observer? Change it around a little. What would you do if one of your students did this? No, it hasn't happened to me. But a good friend reports that one of the BB at her school does it all the time. She seemed a little non-plussed at my response which was along the lines of "Hasn't anyone slugged this idiot yet?" --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 10:40:28 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Todd Ellner" To: , , , , , Subject: [Eskrima] Off topic, irrelevant, and worth reading Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/print/0,1478,2922948a11,00.html Veteran whacks would-be burglar SATURDAY , 29 MAY 2004 By JARROD BOOKER Christchurch war veteran Arthur Fuller felt no fear when he took his walking stick to an intruder more than 30 years his junior. "I have never been scared of anything. I've had knives held at my throat ... I've seen ships go down in one flash, no survivors," the 80-year-old former navy man said. The intruder, Terrence John Enright, suffered a head cut requiring stitches for his troubles after forcing his way into Fuller's home on the night of May 9. "He didn't worry me in the slightest. I went to sleep just the same. I didn t give him the full force or else I would have downed him," Fuller said. Enright, 48, appeared in the Christchurch District Court yesterday and pleaded guilty to being unlawfully in a building. Judge Robert Wolff told Enright: "In some senses you're fortunate that the victim in this case literally seems to be a hero. It seems that, having served in Italy and Africa, he was scared but was going to take you on. "He was brave but you could have gone into the home of someone who would have been terrified and not so brave, and you could have made someone unable to feel safe and to sleep properly again for the rest of their life," the judge said. Fuller was first alerted to Enright at his door when he heard a "loud thump" He opened the door to the length of the safety chain to find Enright sitting on the doorstep, taking off his trousers and shoes. "I said to him, `You're not doing that'." Enright then tried to force his hand inside to try to open the door and Fuller "cracked him across the knuckles" three times with his walking stick. As Fuller went to phone the police, Enright broke through two locks and the chain and entered the home. Fuller confronted him as he headed towards the bedrooms of the house. "I said, `You're not going down there'." Arming himself with his walking stick once again, Fuller swung as Enright advanced. The blow left Enright's blood spilt on the carpet of the home. "I was scrubbing it when the police came. They said to leave it alone," Fuller said. Enright was captured by police a short distance from Fuller's home. He was yesterday bailed to a restorative justice conference on June 18. "You have to do something about your obvious over-drinking on this occasion and possibly others," the judge told him. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: argyll@comcast.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 17:27:05 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Fencing as a Martial Art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From what I've read, if you are interested in fencing as a martial art, as opposed to as a modern Olympic-style sport, you might want to search out a school of that teaches classical or historical fencing. More info about the differences between types of fencing here: www.martinez-destreza.com/fenfaq.htm Best regards, Jake --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Jared Dame Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Questions about manners - not really hypothetical Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 14:56:08 -0700 To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have had one idiot come to me at work and grab from behind for my knive in my right pant pocket, it turned out to be an incident at work that caused us both to go in front of the boss for me putting him is a hold and guiding him to the ground. He has never done it again though. Jared Dame On May 30, 2004, at 9:41 AM, Todd Ellner wrote: > This is one of those questions that it feels strange to even ask > because it > is so far over the line. But it should be amusing to hear what people > have > to say. > > What would your immediate reaction be if you were in a social > situation and > someone grabbed (or tried to grab) the knife out of your pocket? Would > it > make any difference if they handed it back to you with a big grin and > an > exaggerated display of manners? How about if it was at a martial arts > school > where you were a guest or observer? > > Change it around a little. What would you do if one of your students > did > this? > > No, it hasn't happened to me. But a good friend reports that one of > the BB at her school does it all the time. She seemed a little > non-plussed at my response which was along the lines of "Hasn't anyone > slugged this idiot yet?" > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 17:59:52 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Western Fencing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, I just want to give some input to the topic of the Western Fencing, being absorbed and inflyence the FMA. Okay, I dont know about other FMA'rtist from the Philippines, but Dad and I believed that we (Filipino) absorbed some of the Western Fencing techniques, but we also believed that Filipino made it better than the original fencing. Filipino techniques was scientifically studied, movement by movement and then they put in action, that what the various variation of techniques came up. Four of my GM that I train under show me an old book written by Charlemange the old book of Doce Pare De Francia, the book is so old and been tears some of the pages already, and the cover is replace by flywood to protect the inner pages. inside of the book, there the picture of the 12 Maestro of Fencing from France, Germany, Intaly, Rome, Greek, Morroco, Africa, England etc. Inside the book also show basic of fencing from holding the weapon, type of saber, swords from diffent region of european country. There grips, stances, attacks and defense. The Filipino did a good job to absorbed the way the book is lay out, and organized, but the techniques is quite different. 1/The Fencing taught direct comfrontation, becaused they believed to the theory the the shortest line from A and point B is straight line. Which is applied by many Filipino martial artist up to now, but the defenses to the so called attack is also linear stances and defended there techniques by minimal movement of the body, and big on blocking technoques sword to swords. 2/Filipino arts is known of using angle of attacks with angular footwork to outside or inside the opponent dange zone. The Filipino only block if that the only way to stop the attack, or else the Filipino fighter chop or hit the attacking hand, to defang the charging animal, wether is it a snake, dog, tiger, lion etc. The point is, is in the different Filipino history, and documented by the majority of Filipino Masters in one universal thought. That the more invaders comes to try to invades Philippines, theire where face the fierce Filipino fighter, and even though they weaponry or style of fighting is advance that the Filipino, ultimately, the Filipino came back and fight them to their own game. They absorved their style and the Filipino made it better especially the defensive tactics. I have experience on fighting a fencer, in the Philippines, and he was surprise to the advance techniques that the Filipino Martial Arts used to advantage the opponents. Last and final, Filipino Martial Arts can OUTPLAY any western fencer but I believed the Western Fencer cannot out play the Filipino Arts. We FMA practitioner can out play any, martial arts, from empty hand thru weapon arts. I just want to voice my thought, we Filipino not denying and not acknowledging the influences, but we also believed we have a better arts that Western Fencing. I will back this out 100% anytime. GaT Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation international World Harimaw Buno Federation --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 17:44:22 -0500 From: ulfhead@integrity.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Western Fencing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm with GatPuno on this one. I have a feeling most of us are since this IS an FMA digest. I have trained hard in the FMA for 13 years and feel it is the most complete system.(Just my opinion) I also subscribe to the famous "absorb what is useful" motto. I'm pretty set in my belief in FMA, as many of us are, but I am always open to adding another tool to my belt if I deem it useful personally. Fencing has its place for some. I feel that, as GatPuno stated, FMA can absorb something like fencing and end up with something even better. Again, just my opinion. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 17:23:02 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Western Fencing To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net That sounds like the book that GM Fred Bandalan told me that the Doce Pares GM's showed to him. That was several years ago when he told me, but he was struck by the fact that the first name in the book was spanish. He said that they told him it was the "Book of Doce Pares" and very few people were alowed to see it because of the condition it was in. Same book? --- GatPuno@aol.com wrote: > Hello, > > I just want to give some input to the topic of the > Western Fencing, being > absorbed and inflyence the FMA. > > Okay, I dont know about other FMA'rtist from the > Philippines, but Dad and I > believed that we (Filipino) absorbed some of the > Western Fencing techniques, > but we also believed that Filipino made it better > than the original fencing. > Filipino techniques was scientifically studied, > movement by movement and then > they put in action, that what the various variation > of techniques came up. > > Four of my GM that I train under show me an old book > written by Charlemange > the old book of Doce Pare De Francia, the book is so > old and been tears some of > the pages already, and the cover is replace by > flywood to protect the inner > pages. inside of the book, there the picture of the > 12 Maestro of Fencing from > France, Germany, Intaly, Rome, Greek, Morroco, > Africa, England etc. Inside > the book also show basic of fencing from holding the > weapon, type of saber, > swords from diffent region of european country. > There grips, stances, attacks and > defense. The Filipino did a good job to absorbed the > way the book is lay out, > and organized, but the techniques is quite > different. > > 1/The Fencing taught direct comfrontation, becaused > they believed to the > theory the the shortest line from A and point B is > straight line. Which is applied > by many Filipino martial artist up to now, but the > defenses to the so called > attack is also linear stances and defended there > techniques by minimal > movement of the body, and big on blocking technoques > sword to swords. > > 2/Filipino arts is known of using angle of attacks > with angular footwork to > outside or inside the opponent dange zone. The > Filipino only block if that the > only way to stop the attack, or else the Filipino > fighter chop or hit the > attacking hand, to defang the charging animal, > wether is it a snake, dog, tiger, > lion etc. The point is, is in the different Filipino > history, and documented by > the majority of Filipino Masters in one universal > thought. That the more > invaders comes to try to invades Philippines, theire > where face the fierce > Filipino fighter, and even though they weaponry or > style of fighting is advance that > the Filipino, ultimately, the Filipino came back and > fight them to their own > game. They absorved their style and the Filipino > made it better especially the > defensive tactics. > > I have experience on fighting a fencer, in the > Philippines, and he was > surprise to the advance techniques that the Filipino > Martial Arts used to advantage > the opponents. Last and final, Filipino Martial Arts > can OUTPLAY any western > fencer but I believed the Western Fencer cannot out > play the Filipino Arts. We > FMA practitioner can out play any, martial arts, > from empty hand thru weapon > arts. > > I just want to voice my thought, we Filipino not > denying and not > acknowledging the influences, but we also believed > we have a better arts that Western > Fencing. > > I will back this out 100% anytime. > > GaT Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > Laguna Arnis Federation international > World Harimaw Buno Federation > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Sean Putt" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Is this a legitamate martial art? Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 20:43:18 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sorry for not replying on this issue, I have been trying to get information to help you with but its been slow. The man that taught me is Kelvin Walker, he's now serving his country in the U.S. Navy. He told me that he learned Inosanto Kali in California, he never told me who he trained with there. He also trained here in Lancaster County, and his instructors name has slipped my memory. I have been trying to get information on him, but he is retired. I havent been able to locate any old phone books from like 1990 where I know he had a listing. On the issue of who the guys were in the old days, the sifu I spoke with is named Paul Heller, I believe, he teaches Jook Lum Temple Southern Praying Mantis, here in Lancaster County. The school that was in downtown Lancaster is closed for business now, so I havent been able to contact him. I never studied the style so I never knew him personally, I know one of his students and he showed me some of the style. As soon as I find out the name of the instructor I will pass it along. As far as trying to talk with this individual, well thats a big question right now, I don't know if this man is even alive at this time? The man who taught me really did know his martial arts and I am forever in his debt for teaching me. Ive read many books on different styles and have seen lots of videos and everything he taught me has been the real deal. Ive even had the chance to protect myself on a few occasions and I'm still here to talk about it, and thats the test of any martial art. Thanks for letting me speak freely. Keep The Spirit Alive, Sean Putt --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest