Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 12:30:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #207 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Knife in lead hand. (Stickfighter87@aol.com) 2. Re: Fencing Revisited (Felipe Jocano) 3. RE: manners (Young Forest) 4. Questions about manners - not really hypothetical (Bobby Indas) 5. Re: Knife in lead hand. (Mike Casto) 6. Western Fencing (garry bowlds) 7. knife in lead hand (Phil Hurcum) 8. Knife in lead hand? You betcha! (Andrew Evans) 9. Hidden knives (Michael Koblic) 10. Re: Hawaiian Stickfights (John Montes) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Stickfighter87@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:09:15 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Knife in lead hand. To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The way I train knife fighting or when I spar for that matter using practice knives, I usually try to change up to see how it works well for me. Becuase as I spar w/ different individuals I find that some grips and whether im in rear or lead hand depends on how the other person Im sparring is skilled. But what i've found that actually works well for "Me" is the knife in the rear hand w/ the butt end of the knife snuggled up against my stomach or below my chest area w the blade facing outward. This usually works well for me...however like i mentioned depending on the skill level of my partner in training I have been killed before even in that grip. due to speed, accuracy and timing. CB --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 03:25:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fencing Revisited To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net HI all, Just something I thought I would share re fencing and the FMA: A few years ago, one of my close friends and fellow practitioner of arnis was urging me to try out Western style fencing. I was interested but time schedules prevented me from going ahead. He went on to train in fencing. Soon after he began training, I watched him spar in our club. He moved differently - it was harder to touch him and conversely it was more difficult to stop his attacks. His footwork still followed the pattern of our style, but it took on a different quality in its execution. Something that I found really fascinating. As far as the sports aspect was concerned, he and everyone who joined him in this experiment in cross-training really dominated their opponents in competition. Nice results when you keep an open mind about what you can learn out there. Regards, Bot __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Young Forest" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:03:03 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: manners Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Well, my response would be, "Keep the knife out of sight." With the proliferation of jerks out there, why invite the inevitable stupid response by openly displaying a knife? I carry a blade 9 times out of 10 when I'm away from home, sometimes 2, but they are well tucked away out of sight, but readily available should the need arise. On the morning bus to work, one of my little hobbies is to scan pockets for the tell-tale clip of a tac folder. Badger Siling Labuyo Arnis _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN Premium. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Bobby Indas" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Questions about manners - not really hypothetical Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 11:05:40 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Todd, My first reaction would be “LOOKING AT HIM STRAIGHT” as if like “what-the-hell-you-do-that-for”? look. As long as he hands it back and he’s not going to harm anyone then I’ll take it back talk to him silently about his manners. If the situation is in a social gathering. If it’s in an MA School then the story is different. It could be a measure of your skill or a singular test. if it’s a test then I’ll give the best lesson he could get. But my first reaction would be “l’ll grab his hand quickly enough if I can”. If it’s for show-off manner, then you’ll know what you should do… but there is a matter of “respect” for other school if you are a guest or a visitor… then, I’ll pick the latter (grabbing). But if it’s my student I’ll give him a lesson that he will never forget. Of course, not to cripple or break any bones but would be for sure he will remember it for good. But that just me. Always Learning. Bobby Indas >-- __--__-- > >Message: 2 >Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 09:41:22 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) >From: "Todd Ellner" >To: , >Subject: [Eskrima] Questions about manners - not really hypothetical >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >This is one of those questions that it feels strange to even ask because it >is so far over the line. But it should be amusing to hear what people have >to say. > >What would your immediate reaction be if you were in a social situation and >someone grabbed (or tried to grab) the knife out of your pocket? Would it >make any difference if they handed it back to you with a big grin and an >exaggerated display of manners? How about if it was at a martial arts >school >where you were a guest or observer? > >Change it around a little. What would you do if one of your students did >this? > >No, it hasn't happened to me. But a good friend reports that one of the BB >at her school does it all the time. She seemed a little non-plussed at my >response which was along the lines of "Hasn't anyone slugged this idiot >yet?" > _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Knife in lead hand. Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:41:35 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think it depends on the scenario. If you're trying to conceal the blade before using it (i.e.: in the case of a prison shanking or other murder type scenario) then the rear hand enables it to be concealed by the body better. If, however, the fight has already engaged then putting it in the lead hand extends its reach and its readiness to act quickly. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 9:43 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Knife in lead hand. > I just read a short book on how to shiv someone "prison style". The author > claims to be an ex-con (or current con, not sure) and to have also done his > share of kniffing people. I don't question this as it is not an issue w/ me. A > lot of what he talks about I agree with. However, he claims that leading with > the knife is the wrong way to do it and that an experienced kniffer always has > his knife in the rear hand and NEVER in the lead hand. I have always trained to > be comfortable with having the knife in either hand, in various grips, in both > leads, no lead, etc... just as is focused on in much of FMA. What do the rest > of you think about this? > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:49:37 -0700 (PDT) From: garry bowlds To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Western Fencing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net After 12 years of Serrada training (plus a few years of Shotokan, Silat, Judo, Bando, Thai Boxing, and a few other arts), I had a serious back injury which forced me to stop training. After any quick twisting move, I usually ended up bedridden for a week or more. Just for fun, I studied fencing for 18 months at a local junior college while taking classes in computer-aided design, because foil fencing was linear and required no twisting moves. During that time, I had a few interesting experiences that you all might enjoy. For the first 3 months I didn't mention my martial arts background. I amazed my classmates and teachers in how quickly I picked things up. They would show me a stance or parry, and I'd do it perfectly the first time. I can't count the number of times I heard "Are you sure you never studied fencing before?" from my instructors and fellow classmates. " The fun really started in the class tournaments. I was undefeated during those 18 months. After awhile I mentioned my previous training in the FMA. The only real problem I had was not using my left-hand. As much as I tried, it would slowly work itself down to get involved in the action. One time, I sparred with one of the instructors and he tried a fleche (a sort of running lunge). He was proud of himself because he thought he had scored on me (after several matches, no one else had succeeded) until one of the onlookers mentioned that he never touched me. A few others backed him up. He argued for awhile until someone explained how I had used my left-hand. Finally I had to resort to holding onto the jacket strap near my lower back.. Another time, I sparred one of the instructors and hit him 8 times in a row with the same technique and easily won the match. Afterwards, he asked me what I did and told him that over the years, I had learned not to fall for simple body fakes. When he attacked, I simply angled away and extended my foil so that he impaled himself. Using this same technique, I broke 4 blades on people during those 18 months. One time, when my opponent charged, the flexible part of my foil broke, and he ran into the hard end. We both just knew that I had stabbed him. I remember slowly withdrawing my weapon hoping there wouldn't be any blood. Fortunetely there wasn't. If he hadn't been wearing his fencing jacket there would have been. One of my instructors joked that he had never broken one in 8 years of fencing and I broke 4 in a fraction of that time. Another time, one of the advanced students (who was almost a foot taller than I am, and a real jerk) got so frustrated sparring with me that he resorted to a head butt. Even with the helmets, it hurt! I immediately switched into Escrima mode. By this time, a few people knew about my background and stopped what they were doing to watch what I was going to do. At first I was going to seriously hurt him with a few elbow and knee strikes, followed by a well placed knee drop, but calmed down enough to throw a few fakes at him with the blade, and then simply knocked the air out of him with a quick side kick to the ribs. Another time we were doing a mirror drill where when one person steps forward the other steps back or visa versa. This one guy refused to move. (There were some real arrogant people in that class) I got closer and closer. Finally, I put my right foot behind his and hit him in the chest with an elbow causing him to fall backwards. Just before he hit the ground, I grabbed the front of his jacket and jerked him upright. He was very cooperative from then on. Another time, I just happened to overhear a conversation between me of the advanced students (all of whom I had defeated in class tournaments) about a demonstration a couple of them had seen with these guys wearing funny little blue vests and waving these little sticks around and how stupid it looked. I eventually realized they were talking about a demo my former Escrima school had done on campus! I politely walked up to them and told them that that was the art I studied, and offered to give them a demonstration of what they didn't understand in the demo. After my little demo, there were no more desparagning comments about Escrima. Two of them came to my house that day and one of them became a long time student of mine. (He never went back to fencing.). The only bad part of my fencing experience was that we were limited to the foil. I was asked by my teachers to to join both the San Jose State and Stanford fencing clubs, of which they were members, because they knew I'd excel with the sabre, and they didn't have anyone close to my skill level with that particular weapon. Unfortunetely, I finished my studies, started working fulltime, and stopped fencing. With all that said, I don't think my fencing experience had much effect on my Escrima . If I had more experience with the epee and sabre it might have. Actually, I just got up and did a little Escrima and realized that it did have some effect on my footwork. My basic stance is similar to the JKD ready stance (which I believe was unflunced by fencing) some of my movements and stances are deeper which were influenced by the fencing lunges, and my back and forth movements are fencing-like. I'm still hoping to get back into fencing before I get too old (I'm almost 48 years old) because it was a lot of fun, and am looking forward to meeting some good sabre practioners. Guro Garry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 09:21:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Hurcum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] knife in lead hand Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Don Pentecost, Knife Fighting in Folsom Prison or some such title. I found it to be a very good book. I don't know if the author was what he claimed to be but I liked the book for the same reason you said. It was short. I found it direct and to the point. No fleureta, just simple, straight techniques. As far as a lead goes, when we spar we are finding the lead is transitional. As it shoud be for maximisation of movement. Using the empty hand forward to protect/clear/sweep the path for the blade hand works well. Using the knife hand to attack and set up heavy impact blows with the empty hand works well too. Phil ===== Phil Hurcum .:Head Instructor:. Arkangel Martial Arts and Combat Sciences "Honour, Duty, Obligation, and Discipline" www.arkangelmartialarts.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 8 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: "Andrew Evans" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:26:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Eskrima] Knife in lead hand? You betcha! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The best reasons I can think of to have a knife in the rear hand is for concealment. The opponent doesn't see the weapon until it's too late. Also, some combat situations may dictate having a knife in the rear hand so that one can grab a person from behind and then... I could see these scenarios also occuring in a prison environment. Let me briefly address the knife on knife scenario. When it comes to a knife on knife battle, I've heard some folks subscribe to the "use the lead arm as bait" method. I understand that some military programs also train this way. No thank you. The knife isn't a magical weapon to be protected with half of the body. It's made to be used. Plus one might need that other arm, especially if the weapon wielding one gets injured. No sacrificial arms in my book. I subscribe to "closest weapon to closest target" method. The shortest point between two lines is a straight line. Put the weapon between yourself and the opponent. Having the knife in the lead hand also increases the chances of the opponent impaling himself. Even if it was a knifer going up against an unarmed opponent in a life or death self-defense or combat situation, I still recommend having the knife in the lead hand. What if the weapon hand is grabbed? No problem. The live hand is called LIVE for a reason. Either knock the bejesus outta the opponent or rip an eye out. Thanks, Andrew Evans www.TopekaKarate.com _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:14:58 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Hidden knives Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Well, my response would be, "Keep the knife out of sight." With the proliferation of jerks out there, why invite the inevitable stupid response by openly displaying a knife? I carry a blade 9 times out of 10 when I'm away from home, sometimes 2, but they are well tucked away out of sight, but readily available should the need arise" An interesting argument for concealing a weapon. I wonder how many confrontations were started because of a weapon carried in plain sight "in a provocative manner". There are interesting cultural differences as to what is acceptable in terms of concealment. In Czech republic I was told that you can carry any sort of blade as long as you "keep it out of sight so as not to upset the public". Michael Koblic Campbell River, BC --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:54:21 -0700 (PDT) From: John Montes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Hawaiian Stickfights Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'd be there if I lived there, but I'm all the way out here in Santa Clara, CA! But please let us know how it turns out! I had heard of some Arnisadoros in Hawaii... ~John --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest