Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 11:15:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #209 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Eskrima in Indianapolis? (Steve Ames) 2. Temecula, California Cabales Serrada Escrima Seminar (Dave Lee) 3. RE: Questions about manners - not really hypothetical (Patrick Davies) 4. Western Fighting Arts (Ollie Batts) 5. Re; empty hand lead (Nigel) 6. Re: knife concealment (Kes41355@aol.com) 7. More on Lead vs Rear hand (Steven Lefebvre) 8. Re: More on Lead vs Rear hand (Aaron Alejandro) 9. Re: Eskrima in Indianapolis? (Stickfighter87@aol.com) 10. Don Pentacost (Marc Macyoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 23:43:40 -0500 From: Steve Ames To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Eskrima in Indianapolis? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Many thanks to those of you who responded. I attended a class tonight with Will Higgenbotham at Carmel Martial Arts (http://members.iquest.net/~wchiggin/index.html). Modern Arnis on Tuesday nights. That'll work just fine for me. Thank you all. -Steve On Mon, May 24, 2004 at 04:28:40PM -0500, David Wilson wrote: > Yes there is a man Named Bruce Ogle who is one of Inasantos students I think > you can find his # under the Indiana Kali Silat Ass. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Ames" > To: > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 11:26 AM > Subject: [Eskrima] Eskrima in Indianapolis? > > > > Hey all, > > > > Wouldn't bother the list with this but google is failing me. > > > > I'm located in Lafayette, IN and there isn't any FMA here. I have to > > work in Indianapolis one day a week so would love to locate a school > > somewhere between Lafayette and Indianapolis to work sticks at. > > > > Anyone know of one? Thanks! > > > > -Steve > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Dave Lee" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 23:46:09 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Temecula, California Cabales Serrada Escrima Seminar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mata Sa Bagyo Filipino Martial Arts Presents Guro Carlito Bonjoc Jr. In a one day seminar on his explosive techniques in the Filipino Martial Arts! A flyer is attached... Please Call David Lee @ (805) 570-9163 for more information... or email at dr2spike@hotmail.com Check out our website @ www.bagyo.net We look foreward to those who can join us and attend this exciting evernt... we appreciate ur support of keeping the Filipino Martial Arts and culture alive! Thank You... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/msword which had a name of Temecula Escrima Seminar.doc] --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:23:35 +0100 From: "Patrick Davies" To: Cc: Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Questions about manners - not really hypothetical Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Have just deleted my response on this subject after it had been covered by marc in a manner that I could never hope to be able to match. A superb post It leads me back to the thinking of how much we do for copying sake iPat Message: 2 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 10:11:43 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Questions about manners - not really hypothetical Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If you don't want to take the responsibility, if you don't want the extra work, if you aren't willing to accept the possible problems and the hassles that will come with a weapon .... don't carry. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:30:31 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Western Fighting Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In response to GatPuno's post (below): I suspect that the reason most westerners who practice the FMA's do so because of the wide range and availability of good instructors. On top of that, most FMA systems would seem to offer a great training method. Finding someone to teach you authentic Western systems of fighting, on the other hand, is going to be much harder - if not virtually impossible. In my opinion, however, I believe that a man skilled in the use of the Small Sword and Buckler, for example, would almost certainly have been able to stand his ground against an equally skilled Eskrimador. There were many different methods and systems of sword-play in the West (by which I mean across the continent of Europe) and, at any given time, there were many different teachers all arguing the toss over which method / system was best. The one that went on the longest being: "Is the point superior to the edge". (And that particular argument also spilled over into Pugilism!) So you see, nothing really changes, does it! In the West, as gunpowder and development of firearms took over, we allowed our various sword-fighting arts to be virtually lost into the annals of history. With that being the case, it's very easy for someone else to come along and rubbish, or put down another's fighting methods or system, when the method or system is no longer around to stand up for itself, or for it to be truly scrutinised, evaluated and tested. Where Western systems of defence are concerned, there are, of course, many books, and other documentation, that can be accessed, studied and researched. There are also several re-enactment groups, societies and individuals, all trying to revive some of these old fighting methods and systems. But training in such a manner is rather different to being able to go train with someone who is part of an unbroken line of bona-fide teachers and masters in a particular system. If we look at great civilisations of the past I'm pretty sure that they all believed they had the greatest fighting methods and systems. Take the Aztecs for example. These people (if I remember my history right) had a great empire in South America for around two centuries before the Spanish arrived and orchestrated their downfall. The Spanish also conquered the Philippines, just in case anyone has forgotten, and it wasn't simply a case of turning up with a mighty task-force and by having superior air power in either case! Pugil From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 17:59:52 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Western Fencing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, I just want to give some input to the topic of the Western Fencing, being absorbed and inflyence the FMA. Okay, I dont know about other FMA'rtist from the Philippines, but Dad and I believed that we (Filipino) absorbed some of the Western Fencing techniques, but we also believed that Filipino made it better than the original fencing. Filipino techniques was scientifically studied, movement by movement and then they put in action, that what the various variation of techniques came up. Four of my GM that I train under show me an old book written by Charlemange the old book of Doce Pare De Francia, the book is so old and been tears some of the pages already, and the cover is replace by flywood to protect the inner pages. inside of the book, there the picture of the 12 Maestro of Fencing from France, Germany, Intaly, Rome, Greek, Morroco, Africa, England etc. Inside the book also show basic of fencing from holding the weapon, type of saber, swords from diffent region of european country. There grips, stances, attacks and defense. The Filipino did a good job to absorbed the way the book is lay out, and organized, but the techniques is quite different. 1/The Fencing taught direct comfrontation, becaused they believed to the theory the the shortest line from A and point B is straight line. Which is applied by many Filipino martial artist up to now, but the defenses to the so called attack is also linear stances and defended there techniques by minimal movement of the body, and big on blocking technoques sword to swords. 2/Filipino arts is known of using angle of attacks with angular footwork to outside or inside the opponent dange zone. The Filipino only block if that the only way to stop the attack, or else the Filipino fighter chop or hit the attacking hand, to defang the charging animal, wether is it a snake, dog, tiger, lion etc. The point is, is in the different Filipino history, and documented by the majority of Filipino Masters in one universal thought. That the more invaders comes to try to invades Philippines, theire where face the fierce Filipino fighter, and even though they weaponry or style of fighting is advance that the Filipino, ultimately, the Filipino came back and fight them to their own game. They absorved their style and the Filipino made it better especially the defensive tactics. I have experience on fighting a fencer, in the Philippines, and he was surprise to the advance techniques that the Filipino Martial Arts used to advantage the opponents. Last and final, Filipino Martial Arts can OUTPLAY any western fencer but I believed the Western Fencer cannot out play the Filipino Arts. We FMA practitioner can out play any, martial arts, from empty hand thru weapon arts. I just want to voice my thought, we Filipino not denying and not acknowledging the influences, but we also believed we have a better arts that Western Fencing. I will back this out 100% anytime. GaT Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation international World Harimaw Buno Federation --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Nigel" To: "Eskrima Digest" Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:13:39 +1000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re; empty hand lead Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On the theme of whether to have the knife hand, or the empty hand forward, I remember Hock (Hockheim) once said to me: "I don't believe I was put on this earth to protect any F'ing Knife, use the knife to protect you!" Regards Nigel --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:25:54 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: knife concealment Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Michael, Way back in the day (mid-'70's) I fell into the "Dukes of Hazzard" mode and carried a Buck folding hunter in a sheath on my belt. This lasted for about one week, since I always got some sort of comment on my motives for wearing a knife that size in public, with a lot of people who felt the need to tug on the knife on my belt (rude as hell). I realized I was inviting the attention by openly displaying the knife, and have carried my knife concealed to this day. Kim Satterfield In a message dated 6/1/04 3:09:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > An interesting argument for concealing a weapon. I wonder how many > confrontations were started because of a weapon carried in plain sight "in a > provocative manner". > > There are interesting cultural differences as to what is acceptable in terms > of concealment. In Czech republic I was told that you can carry any sort of > blade as long as you "keep it out of sight so as not to upset the public". --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:43:39 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] More on Lead vs Rear hand Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, Very interesting thread, forward or rear hand usage for the blade. Both will have their applications dependent on the situation at hand. Utilizing the “Interview Stance” you may have to push off with the lead hand and then counter or draw with the rear. (The same would apply to a firearm) You shouldn’t place total emphasis in your training on only one fighting position, but be able to adapt to wherever you are. In the recent thread on someone removing the blade from his pocket: In our Sayoc Kali class we often will try and remove a partner’s blade while we are training as it helps develop sensitivity to weapon retention as well as awareness to various carry points. ( As well this happens when people have their carry blades on) definitely keeps you on your toes!! Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Aaron Alejandro" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] More on Lead vs Rear hand Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:04:20 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Steve, Excellent post. I was always taught that leadership is situational -- that your leadership style has to change with the situation your dealing with (autocratic, democratic and laisse faire). I too have come to believe that blade work -- and martial arts in general -- is much the same. Making a plan to use one hand or the other could be a very dangerous endeavor. However, awareness, alertness and preparedness -- lead hand / rear hand -- provides many more options to more accurately deal with the situation at hand. The more training we receive with the particulars of lead hand/ rear hand the more we will be able to execute "leadership" in the situation at hand. Respectfully, Aaron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 9:43 AM Subject: [Eskrima] More on Lead vs Rear hand > Hello Everyone, > > Very interesting thread, forward or rear hand usage for the blade. Both will > have their applications dependent on the situation at hand. Utilizing the > “Interview Stance” you may have to push off with the lead hand and then > counter or draw with the rear. (The same would apply to a firearm) You > shouldn’t place total emphasis in your training on only one fighting > position, but be able to adapt to wherever you are. > > In the recent thread on someone removing the blade from his pocket: In our > Sayoc Kali class we often will try and remove a partner’s blade while we are > training as it helps develop sensitivity to weapon retention as well as > awareness to various carry points. ( As well this happens when people have > their carry blades on) definitely keeps you on your toes!! > > Gumagalang > Guro Steve L. > > www.Bujinkandojo.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Stickfighter87@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:19:04 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Eskrima in Indianapolis? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Great!!!! I am sure you will enjoy Master Will's perspective on things, he is a very intelligent martial artist and has a lot of great things to learn. I wish i lived closer to him, I would train there if i could. Cory Ballinger I.M.A.A. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:38:53 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Don Pentacost Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Phil Hurcum wrote: > > > Don Pentecost, Knife Fighting in Folsom Prison or some > > such title. I found it to be a very good book. > > I don't know if the author was what he claimed to be > > but I liked the book for the same reason you said. It > > was short. I found it direct and to the point. No > > fleureta, just simple, straight techniques. Snip Using the knife hand to attack and set up heavy > > impact blows with the empty hand works well too. > > Phil I know Don personally. When I was in Riverside CA bodyguarding strippers he and I had a chance for a sit down lunch. He worked down south a ways and his territory brought him up to Riverside now and then. Which is how we ended up doing serious damage to a Shakey's lunch buffet. Let's just say that Don's past is a little "dim" and that like many reformed individuals he has now found that legitimate business is far more lucrative than crime. Having said that, however, from a street perspective, I wouldn't want to tangle with the man without damn good reason -- and this is me talking. Unless you are a seriously experienced street player, you'd never see him coming, which is how experienced players live long enough to become experienced players. What is more important is to recognize about what Don is talking about is, despite the title of the book, he is not talking about "knife fighting." He is talking about murder. Plain and simple, it is a "hit." And it is how criminals use blades to achieve their ends, when other more effective means are not available. (Or as Craig Lamana says in his yet unpublished book, to "send a message.") Furthermore, it is far, far less about technique and more about the intent of getting in there and getting the job done. What I want you folks to remember is a comment that I made in a previous post about jamming the weapon/weapon hand in an actual attack. With that in mind, the empty lead hand idea begins to make more sense ... as does it's application for seizing the opponent to prevent his escape. You're there to kill him, not fight him. Let me further point out that, it is critical to understand this style of attack and incorporate effective counters into your training to hand the specialized physics involved. I do a demonstration of this sort of attack style in my seminars. And I say this having traveled the world and done this demonstration in many different countries: I have yet to fail to gut my victim. I had one guy in Germany come close to surviving, but I still got him. And this is not because I am me, in fact, when I do this kind of attack I leave out all kinds of aspects of my training and I just come in like a thug would. Training to handle this kind of committed, killing attack is what I design my seminars for and it is often why so many people are confused when they discover that I am not training them for a knife to knife encounter. I teach people to survive against a thug ...cause face it, who else is going to be trying to stab you? In the five times I have been attacked by a knifer (and I mean attacked, I don't even count the times I disarmed the guy for showing me the blade in attempted intimidation) only once was I ever able to draw and deploy my own blade (and I carried a fixed blade in a sheath and practiced speed draws). I have however, dealt with these kind of attacks, which is why I immediately recognized what Don was talking about was legitimate. Yep, that's how it happens out there kiddies. And if you train for what happens most, you'll be able to handle most of what happens. Therefore, my recommendation is that people interested in knife work, get Don's book, and practice what he recommends. Not that it is the ultimate knife fighting system -- it's not -- but rather practice it to learn what the physics of this kind of attack are. And what is necessary for you to be able to do in order to counter it. Not from a technique standpoint, but what physics you must adopt to prevent this kind of attack from plowing through your defenses. It doesn't matter what counter you come up with, what matters is that what you do keeps you from getting gutted like a fish. It is a pretty simple standard of success. If you get carved, it didn't work. Don is not talking about dueling, he is talking about a committed killing attack, the physics are radically different -- and it is far, far better that you discover this difference in the training hall than in a dark and deserted parking lot. Animal --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest