Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:15:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #212 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: rudness, Don Pentacost and a lot of other things (Stovall, Craig) 2. re: manners (Van Harn, Steve) 3. Carnage and Culture (Re: Why the Spaniards Conquered the Philippines) (Ron Harris) 4. Animal's reply (POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com) 5. Leo Salinel/Good post (GatPuno@aol.com) 6. More on the FMA/ Western fencing (GatPuno@aol.com) 7. re: re: acceptance of exotic ma (excalibur921@ctnet.net) 8. RE: acceptance of "exotic martial arts" (Stovall, Craig) 9. Latest Pentecost love fest (Ray Terry) 10. Re: re: re: acceptance of exotic ma (Mike Casto) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 13:50:35 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: rudness, Don Pentacost and a lot of other things Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net First of all, that was an amazing post by Marc. I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that I thoroughly enjoy it when he goes into "rant mode". Incredible perspective, and information. Bravo. <<>> I was curious if you've ever been exposed to the so-called "Jailhouse Rock"...sometimes referred to as "the 52 Blocks" (or just "52")? I'm sure most are familiar with the stuff that Dennis Newsome has shown in Soet's "Martial Arts from Around the World" series of books. Just curious as to whether you had any info on (or experience with) this fighting method. Thanks! CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Van Harn, Steve" To: "Eskrima Digest (E-mail)" Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:13:36 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] re: manners Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Badger wrote: "On the morning bus to work, one of my little hobbies is to scan pockets for the tell-tale clip of a tac folder." I too cannot even help but constantly notice those around here who have clips showing. This is not an area that a man in dress clothes needs to display a clip! Makes one wonder why. Interesting personal experience to relate though. We've all had the smart aleck grab us or take a blind shot at us in an environment where our guard has no reason to be up(too much). Say in a closed room with only one other person we are very familiar with? The ignored shot is then followed with some smart ass comment of "I thought you guys(which guys?) are supposed to be always on your guard?!". My usual answer is "and also trained to recognize a non-threat". In this particular situation I was bear hugged from behind and lifted off my feet, hands at my sides. Not an imminently dangerous position and one with options. As happenstance would have it, my right hand was exactly where he choose to carry his clip. I simply relieved him of it, opened it and held it up where he could get and eyeful. Joking over...... Another friend was annoyed with the constant "what ifs". After repeated refusals to "play", he was asked "what if this overhand stab with a pencil was a real knife?" Without much further thought, he promptly redirected the pencil strike into the jokers thigh a few inches deep as if it were a real knife. Better that Todd's joker get over his proclivity before he runs into other similarly short tempered individuals with real knives and less manners. Steve Van Harn Arnis Sikaran - Jornales System Sandatahan --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 12:49:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Ron Harris To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Carnage and Culture (Re: Why the Spaniards Conquered the Philippines) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Leo Salinel wrote (in part): > The Spaniards didn't conquer the Filipinos using > superior technology. Rather, they did it using > "divide > and conquer" strategies, > > Thus, we can say that whatever fighting weapon arts > my > ancestors had at the time, was not defeated by > Spanish > steel, but by the duplicity and lack of solidarity > of > my own ancestors, in that they were easily duped > into > fighting themselves. > and, Ollie Batts wrote (in part): > Take my own country, Britain, for example: > > Over the centuries we (Britain) have also been > invaded, conquered and > settled in. < > Therefore, please DO NOT > attempt to patronise me, or try to tell me that the > British have not had a > long history and knowledge of actual conflict, > warfare and fighting. > > Do you honestly believe that the above invaders, or > my own ancestors, didn't > get to use, and therefore gain an understanding in > the effective use, of all > manner of fighting weapons during that time? I don't > mean this to offend you > in any way but, is your knowledge and understanding > of the rest of the world > really that limited? Dear enthusiasts: This is a fascinating discussion of martial culture. Please take a look at Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson (2001), who argues that the Western Way of War is rooted in Greco-Roman times. The Western social institutions; citizenship, markets, political structures, and technological innovations are causal for superiority in warfare. The Philippines, like so many other areas of the world, were conquered: first, by shock and awe and secondly by adaptive behaviors. Thus, making alliances of dubious moral convenience, something we can observe now in Iraq and Afghanistan. Having gotten ill-tempered myself upon occasion, with defending nationalism, perhaps we can remember how we learn. Every engagement with the enemy or occupying force teaches us something about ourselves. We win, lose, adapt or die. The Europeans were superior in waging war. We Americans inherit that legacy. Along the way our colonies, such as the Philippines, adapt for survival. They learned too. This does not mean that: Toledo steel was superior to Nippon steel, for example. It is of no consequence. German tanks in WW2 were superior to American tanks, but were simply outnumbered being more expensive to produce. Western culture was and is superior in warfare. This should be obvious to anyone who looks at a map. We can map the successes and failures when warfare takes place. Who occupied what territory and for how long? There was no Philippines before Spanish influence, just as there was no Britain without Rome. We became Romans and Greeks or we ceased to exist in modern warfare... Of course the Filipino tribesmen were smart enough to learn Spanish swordplay. To think otherwise would be to say they're incapable of observing what is useful. Yours, Ron ===== Ronald A. Harris, Ph.D. http://www.ronharris.biz/ (225) 772-5007 Cell "We are all addicts of fossil fuels in a state of denial, about to face cold turkey." Kurt Vonnegut (2004). __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: POWERFACTOR71839@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 15:51:19 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Animal's reply Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Surviving against a knife fighting method, tends to > be more the realm of a fighting system instead of a martial way/sport. > > Marc Animal MacYoung > Once again, Marc, excellent reply. I think Blaise Loong's reference to a prison system might be via Inosanto's instructors. Some of them spent time in the joint in the Filipines. Dan shows a type of grip he was shown. He mentions them taping the blade in their hands to prevent disarm. He also mentions breaking scissors apart to make REAL guntings. Other than Pentecost,...Dennis Newsome might have some stuff from his African studies, Capoeira, to 52/Jailhouse Rock. Maybe one of Cliff Stewart's students are on the list and can direct this to Dennis thru Cliff. Tom Furman --__--__-- Message: 5 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:07:46 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Leo Salinel/Good post Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I just want praise Leo Salinel to this additional post in regards of the FMA, influences by the Fencing. Good post and good point. The Garimot footwork is L shape and V shape, not the boxing stance, that JKD used and Balintawak used. Thank you, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Laguna Arnis Federation International World Harimaw Buno Federation > Professor Bot Jocano can bear me out on this. > > The Spaniards didn't conquer the Filipinos using > superior technology. Rather, they did it using "divide > and conquer" strategies, sort of like using one tribe > of Native Americans (e.g., the Apache) against another > tribe (e.g., the Cherokee). That's what happened. > Report after report and annal after annal in Spanish > documentations of the conquest show that the Spaniards > relied heavily on hundreds and hundreds of native > warriors from one region to conquer another. For > instance, the city of Maynila (Manila) fell into > Spanish hands in 1571 no thanks to the participation > of Cebuano and other Visayan warriors brought in by > Miguel Lopez de Legaspi. The Bicol region, on the > other hand, from which my ancestry comes, was > conquered likewise by Tagalog soldiers doing the > fighting for only a handful of Spanish officers. The > northern provinces of Ilocos and Pangasinan were > conquered with Tagalog and Visayan soldiers under > Spanish command. Each invading mission had around > 300-400 Filipino soldiers with no more than 20-30 > Spanish officers. > > Thus, we can say that whatever fighting weapon arts my > ancestors had at the time, was not defeated by Spanish > steel, but by the duplicity and lack of solidarity of > my own ancestors, in that they were easily duped into > fighting themselves. Of course, to them it wasn't a > case of being duped, since they were fighting amongst > themselves ever since--for slaves, for gold, for the > sheer pride of conquest. > > True, European swordfighting techniques entered the > FMA. That cannot be denied. If you view Tagalog as > well as other Luzon-based FMA styles, you will notice > the "L" shaped footwork which is more probably an > influence of Spanish swordfighting. Note also, the > wide open positioning of the espada and the daga > vis-a-vis the usually in tight weapon ready position > of most Visayan eskrima styles. (Recall how the late > GM Leo Giron's live hand would be positioned in what > resembles a modern day fencer's live hand position.) --__--__-- Message: 6 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:20:01 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] More on the FMA/ Western fencing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Pugil, Great post, and your point is well taken. Greata Job and puting some little history of your country, I still stand to what I told you, we FMA'tist absorb some of the best techniques from fencing or westener and used it. But I am not agreeing to what early post that all copied the whole "Western System" becaused we have so much diffences in holding the weapon, footworks, drills, and variation of application. We fall on what Guro Inosanto is preaching Absorb what is usefull. Thank you, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > Do you honestly believe that the above invaders, or my own ancestors, > didn't > get to use, and therefore gain an understanding in the effective use, of all > manner of fighting weapons during that time? I don't mean this to offend you > in any way but, is your knowledge and understanding of the rest of the world > really that limited? > > Pugil --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 15:43:04 -0500 From: excalibur921@ctnet.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re: re: acceptance of exotic ma Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net gentlemen, i agree with both of your solutions and analogies. why do i care, simply because i knew the instructors before and had a professional relationship with them in tournament and dojo held events. just thought i would bring up the topic for discussion, dealing with those considered to be traditional stylists. as well it can be difficult at times in the midwest, near the st louis area to be more specific, to garner like minded practioners. thanks for the great input. i lean more toward the example of the old kempo way. respects guro mike --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:43:59 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: acceptance of "exotic martial arts" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net <<>> I would remind these "traditionalists" of their history. In short, the belt rank system is a relatively new innovation in the grand scheme of things. Any "traditional" system can trace itself back to an antecedent art or practice that was devoid of such ranking systems. Its very use is an example of people having adopted new ways that are different from the preceding generation's "traditions". However, I understand their perspective (as shortsighted as it may be). For children being born today, the internet and cell phones will have "always been around". For most martial artists, the belts have always been there...thus their perceived value in terms of "tradition". Horse hockey!!! <<>> I would suggest that some people will never be satisfied...even if they are hung with a brand new rope!!! If these folks have something of value to you, and are helpful in your quest to achieve your goals in the arts...then I say just smile and nod whenever they offer their OPINION (emphasis on that word is important). Otherwise, I would choose some friends that were a little less critical, and a little more open minded. They say you can't choose your family, but you CAN choose your friends. If they're more trouble than they're worth then kick their traditional asses to the curb, and let people who really care about you take up more of your time and headspace. For what it's worth...I don't mean to be preachy. BTW, what happened during the sparring? I always like hearing stories about people getting they're attitudes adjusted (however, it may have failed in this case). CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email transmission contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entities named above. If this email was received in error or if read by a party which is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error or are unsure whether it contains confidential or privileged information, please immediately notify us by email or telephone. You are instructed to destroy any and all copies, electronic, paper or otherwise, which you may have of this communication if you are not the intended recipient. Receipt of this communication by any party shall not be deemed a waiver of any legal privilege of any type whatsoever as such privilege may relate to the sender. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] Latest Pentecost love fest Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just thought I'd check back to determine the first time Pentecost's work was raised on the digest. It was from a post I submitted on Friday, 10 March 1995. I still have his little booklet around here somewhere. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re: re: acceptance of exotic ma Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:44:54 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net LOL. And as I mentioned to an acquaintence once when discussing "traditional" arts: what makes an art "traditional?" In the dictionary, the first definition is "tradition" is: 1.. The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication. If the FMA, with several hundreds of years of *documented* martial arts practice, don't qualify as "traditional" then I don't know what do count :-) Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 4:43 PM Subject: [Eskrima] re: re: acceptance of exotic ma > gentlemen, > > i agree with both of your solutions and analogies. > why do i care, simply because i knew the instructors > before and had a professional relationship with > them in tournament and dojo held events. > just thought i would bring up the topic for discussion, > dealing with those considered to be traditional stylists. > as well it can be difficult at times in the midwest, near > the st louis area to be more specific, to garner like > minded practioners. > thanks for the great input. i lean more toward the > example of the old kempo way. > > respects > guro mike > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest