Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 07:51:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #219 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Eskrima: Missing the point (Bob) 2. You got me again too! (Ollie Batts) 3. RE: Knife in lead hand PT2. Super long winded, sorry (Leo Daher) 4. Any evidence of Spanish Sworplay against FMA? (Steven Lefebvre) 5. Cheap Books (Jonathan Broster) 6. WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics (bphillips211@sprintpcs.com) 7. RE: acceptance of "exotic martial arts" (Bobbe Edmonds) 8. How do you defend against this? (Sam Bell Jr) 9. Re: Any evidence of Spanish Sworplay against FMA? (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Bob" To: Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 00:53:17 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Eskrima: Missing the point Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Pugil, Sir: These are in reply to your questions: I am not stirring any controversies but posting my views on the discussion... You wrote: "What was ineffective about the Spanish methods in the first place? How did the Filipino's make "...it more effective." ---I am not saying that the Spaniards that time their methods are ineffective. I was saying that they have their methods of fighting are also superior but these methods were incorporated by the local fighters by learning theirs - they found these methods and abilities were closely defied when they were defeated. "How come the Spaniards, having used bladed weapons for so long, couldn't figure out for themselves that their system was either ineffective, or could have been improved upon? ---Let's just say for argument sake. "Japanese Technology is by far effective and durable than other western technology. how did they do that? They studied and studied the methods. breaking up into several pieces and made it more effective than the counterparts". The concept there is similar to what they did. I believe all forms of fighting methods are effective or ineffective. it is how to understand the system and applying it. ".Could have been improved upon"? To answer that -- yes, they improved their ways of fighting before they went to war. ".Are you therefore suggesting that the Filipinos is more intelligent than the Spaniards?" --I'm not suggesting nor implicating that Filipinos are more intelligent than the Spaniards I'm only expounding or clarifying what was there before. their style was superior enough to understand by the locals and made improvements or adopted their abilities and that they were not ashamed by it. Respectfully. Bobby Indas Balintawak Style --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 06:01:53 +0000 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] You got me again too! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In reply to Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Message 7 Vol 11 Dear Sir, I wondered whether or not to reply to your post, as I am afraid that you clearly misunderstand me still. I have no ulterior motives, no axes to grind, and am not going out of my way to seek conflict with anyone, or to promote the history of my country, any more than you do yours! Let's try to resolve this situation amicably as, I fear, that I am in danger of offending you to a point beyond verbal recall. I'll start by attempting to clear up one or two misconceptions: Firstly, I do not hide behind my computer, and I am rather insulted that you should stoop so low as to suggest such a thing. Secondly, I am simply a 'student' of the Filipino Martial Arts, unlike you who I understand to be a Grandmaster. Someone that I would hope could either teach or inform me to higher levels of understanding. Apart from having done a little Boxing and Quarterstaff, I do not, and have not, practised Western Arts. There are few, if any, opportunities to genuinely practise much else, other than modern-day Western Fencing - which I am not really that interested in doing. When I posed/asked the questions: "What was ineffective about the Spanish methods in the first place?" "How did the Filipino's make "...it more effective."?" These were not meant to be trick questions. And neither was I trying to 'pull anyone's tail', offend them, or put them, their system or heritage down. I simply asked, what I thought to be, legitimate questions in my search for fundamental knowledge and understanding of the relationship and connection between the old Spanish methods of warfare, and how the Filipino's improved on those methods of fighting with swords - as I did not, and still do not, know the answers to those questions. For you to respond with: "Mr. Pugil, its hard to explain, but if you are interested to see, just try to pist-off one Filipino wherever you are. You dont need to ask twice, I will guarantee you, you will get what you are searching for. We are known for action more than words." That reply leaves me somewhat bewildered. How is that supposed to answer my questions? In any case, why would it need to be a pissed off Filipino? Couldn't a calm and rational Filipino also demonstrate the differences in effectiveness between the old Spanish system (as used by Magellan and his crew) and the Filipino system? As well as show me what the Filipino's did to make the system "more effective"? Seekers of the truth are surely entitled to ask questions, and then to question the answers? I always believed that the debate was lost when one person feels that the only way to answer a tricky question is to take up arms to somehow try to prove their point! If you and I fought, and you were to beat me - a probable outcome - that still wouldn't answer my questions. I'll speak no more on the matter on this forum. Clearly it is not the done thing to ask such questions. Instead I'll go re-read Peake's 'Three to One' for further inspiration, and then go train some more. Pugil --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Leo Daher" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Knife in lead hand PT2. Super long winded, sorry Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 02:22:44 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Phil Hurcum wrote:   Vitor Belfort, I forget who he fought, but he entered succesfully and missed with the cross, but it was successful enough to worry his opponent who took  a stagger backward. Vitor followed this up by straight punching. Like a one handed bench press left right left right as he ran forwards to his opponent striking continuosly. This demonstrates a crude but nonetheless effective Siniwali.   Vitor's opponent was Vanderlei Silva, himself a very powerful striker. The fight happened at UFC Brazil, and last only 44 seconds before the referee stopped it.   "Praise be that which toughens" - Nietzsche  --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:19:57 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Any evidence of Spanish Sworplay against FMA? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, I've enjoyed the recent post on FMA vs Spanish swordplay or the influence on FMA thru Spanish sword work, but does anyone have any written accounts to prove this out? From the most early Spanish letters (1565-1615) they mention the use of firearms(arquebuse), cannon, but not individual swordwork, in battles with the native tribes of the Philippines. I know there was a great debate on the DogBrothers forums with Rafeal Kayanan and others that covers this area as well. Just wondering if anyone has any direct written evidence to support all the WMA's claims? or is it just revisionist thinking. Gumagalang Guro Steve L www.Bujinkandojo.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 12:35:25 +0100 From: "Jonathan Broster" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Cheap Books Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi I just got a copy of "Pananandata" by Pat Marinas. Like a lot of books from Paladin it is very expensive, which has meant that I never bought it, even though it looked interesting, but I got a copy from: http://www.superbookdeals.com Well actually it was advertised on the amazon.co.uk site as a "new or used" copy (it's new) and it only cost me £11, instead of the £21.99 that amazon want for it. Quick delivery, and cheap. Recommended. (In case you were wondering, I have no connections with any of the above people or companies). Jon "There's nothing more dangerous than a blunt knife!" http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster ... --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:20:31 +0000 (GMT) From: bphillips211@sprintpcs.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Question for the old hands.. I am presently half a world away from my usual instructor and playmates. The base I am deployed to (for another 3 months) has an arnis class. I won't mention what sort because it is rather lame. I have been chatting with the instructor and it's become apparent the only way I will ever get him to spar with me (as opposed to doing this weird "flowy pretend sparring as performance art" crap) is to use the WEKAF gear. The problem is the instructor is constantly harping on how it's more important to get lots of hits than to get a few really powerful ones. He also avoids hand shots. He also thinks backing up is a no-no. Naturally I really want to cross sticks with him :) My questions to the group are.. 1.If someone has a background in unarmoured sparring (goggles only) is sparring with the WEKAF gear worth the investment of buying the gear? 2. Is fighting in my usual largo fashion (i.e. stay out, go in to get a few power hits, and get back out) a viable strategy in a WEKAF tournament or will I get DQed for trying to KO my opponent? 3. Is doing WEKAF style tournament fighting worth doing at all? I strongly believe that I should test my skills against people outside my school, but at the same time I have nothing but contempt for "point sparring". Thanks for any input. Brian -------------------- This message was sent from a PCS Phone from Sprint. Get a free PCS Mail account! Sign up via the Web Browser on your Sprint Phone or at http://www.sprintpcs.com. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Bobbe Edmonds" To: Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 05:44:05 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: acceptance of "exotic martial arts" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I would like to address this idea of studying outside of your main teacher. I have several students who train other styles, and some train the same things I teach (Kali, Silat) at different schools as well. If you are an absolute beginner in the Martial Arts, or trying a new art for the first time, then it is important to focus on building some solid fundamentals before doing anything else. Too much food on your plate will only cause indigestion, not nourish you. This is the same with martial arts, since most arts teach different body mechanics, and most martial art teachers have vastly different approaches to training. Too many Sifus, Sensei & Gurus, and you will only walk away confused, not enlightened. In this respect, usually only one teacher is necessary, and that for a long period of time. However, I personally don’t know everything, and if I truly have my student's best interests at heart, I will cultivate their skill development and encourage them to seek out other points of view, as well as skill in areas that I myself do not possess. In this age of computers & the internet, it would be the height of idiocy to try to corral you into believing I am the sun source of knowledge. Many instructors feel that “Membership” equals “Ownership”. This means that you train with, and ONLY with, them. Also, seeking to better yourself by expanding your education in the martial arts with other instructors is considered “disrespectful”, “disloyal” and “ungrateful”. In truth, it is none of these things. A true teacher is interested only in the development and advancement of his students, and should have their best interests at heart at all times when instructing. When you were in high school, did the teacher say it was okay to learn reading, but by god she better NOT catch you in that math class!! ...Of course not. Why is it we think exclusionary training is acceptable in the martial arts? As Americans, we accept this standard NOWHERE else in our lives, yet when it comes to training martial arts, we are being “dishonorable”. Now, I realize this is an important aspect in many asian cultures, and although understanding the culture from whence your martial art came is important, it should not be overlooked that the same circumstances usually do not exist in America. Our culture is just as valid as anyone else’s, and deserves to be treated with equal respect. So, unlike the accepted norm, the Edmonds Academy (my school) does not enforce the culture, religion, language or idiosyncrasies of another country on it’s students, although understanding for such is encouraged. Respect others, but be who you are. In my school, “Loyalty” translates directly into “Hard Work: The personal commitment to training, & effort to better yourselves”, not “Kowtowing to Guro”. The class tuition is only part of the equation, a simple motivational tool to inspire the student to get his money’s worth. The real payoff for the student is of time and work/energy, the gift of knowledge & the personal achievement of growth in the Martial Arts. I would like to see all who receive training under me to surpass me someday. That would not be possible by training solely under me, even if I taught them every last iota of knowledge I had. They MUST seek out other points of view and methods of training, if for no other reason, to help them understand their own. Now, I pay a small, annoying price for this freedom: I encounter the usual barrage of questions when something I have taught conflicts with the "other" training, and the student wants me to think for them instead of examining the material they have gained. The wording will come across something like; "In master Kwan's school, we do it like this. Which one of you is right?" Usually, I tell the student to meditate on it for a few months, and tell me what he thinks fits him best. However, I always try to show what my point of view was when I taught whatever technique is in question. And I always try to paint the other teacher in a positive light, since I usually don't know exactly what they were teaching my student. Wow, this one turned out to be longer than I thought! Bobbe Edmonds Here lies a toppled God, his fall was not a small one. We did but build his pedestal a narrow and a tall one. -The master’s warning against arrogance. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Sam Bell Jr" To: Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:56:51 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] How do you defend against this? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I didn't realize the dude had reinforced the cab of the bulldozer with 2 sheets of 1/2" steel with concrete in between that. From what I read, there was an Officer on the cab drooping flashbangs into the exhaust stack, with no effect. I've seen some bizarre stuff in my life, but this takes the cake. Now I am sure the Officers on scene had all sorts of ideas of what sort of improvised devices they could have rigged up, but I bet they held off for fear of public ridicule. Seems like the dude had planned this for some time, and was very determined to get his point across. Even to the point of not shooting anyone, even though he was taking fire. So unless he left a letter or some sort of manifesto, we may never really know the whole story. Just my 2 cents, Sam --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Any evidence of Spanish Sworplay against FMA? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I've enjoyed the recent post on FMA vs Spanish swordplay or the influence on > FMA thru Spanish sword work, but does anyone have any written accounts to > prove this out? From the most early Spanish letters (1565-1615) they mention > the use of firearms(arquebuse), cannon, but not individual swordwork, in > battles with the native tribes of the Philippines. FWIW, western state-of-the-art firearms of the above mentioned era would be wheel lock guns. Assuming fairly dry weather conditions, they were still very troublesome in their operation. Here is a short piece on the wheel lock... "How did the wheel lock work? The key element was a palm-sized, serrated wheel that was attached, via a short chain of three links, to a powerful leaf spring made of steel. Using a wrenchlike tool called a spanner, the wielder cranked this wheel counterclockwise, bending the spring until the wheel engaged a catch linked to the trigger. Pulling the trigger then released this catch and allowed the spring to spin the wheel, which protruded through the bottom of a priming pan filled with fine gunpowder. The mechanism also automatically retracted a lid covering this pan, allowing the spinning wheel to scratch against a lump of the mineral iron pyrites, producing a shower of sparks and setting the piece off. The loading of a wheel lock remained unimproved over other firearms of the day: powder, ball (or balls-three were used in Guise's assassination), and wadding were pushed down the weapon's bore with a short ramrod; then the loader filled the priming pan and depressed the cock. But unlike other firearms, once loaded the wheel-lock pistol could be tucked away and held until drawn and fired. Until its widespread replacement by the flintlock (which required no wheel, relying instead on a flint to spark the charge) after the mid-seventeenth century, the wheel lock remained the only practical mechanism. "However, the ingenious wheel lock was not without disadvantages. If left spanned too long, the mainspring could conform to its bent position and refuse to drive the wheel. In 1645, during the English Civil War, the Parliamentarian general Edmund Ludlow left a wound-up pair of pistols overnight, and found them unusable in helping him fend off a dawn attack. In addition, early gunpowder was an inefficient, dirty explosive, and a wheel lock soon clogged with corrosive, gritty residue. Besides necessitating constant maintenance, this could be very dangerous-a stray spark might explode a dirty lock packed with incompletely burned powder. And period gunpowder, often of uncertain potency, was hazardous in other ways. Doesn't really answer your question, but something to consider. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest