Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:35:09 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #220 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. wheel locks (tvalesky@patriot.net) 2. RE: Knife in lead hand PT2. Super long winded, sorry (steven ledwith) 3. Re: ED 11.219 - WEKAF Sparring (bhubbard@cogentmethod.com) 4. Re: wheel locks (Ray Terry) 5. BADMINTON (A. RANEY) 6. RE: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics (WoodyTX) 7. RE: How do you defend against this? (WoodyTX) 8. Spanish Fencing vs. FMA and some other ramblings (Joseph Artigas) 9. Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics (Larry St. Clair) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:52:33 -0400 (EDT) From: tvalesky@patriot.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] wheel locks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > FWIW, western state-of-the-art firearms of the above mentioned era would > be > wheel lock guns. Assuming fairly dry weather conditions, they were still > very troublesome in their operation. Ray, I was under the impression that the wheel lock was rather expensive to manufacture and delicate. My impression was that the mass-issue weapon of choice was the matchlock, until the arrival of the flintlock. I think wheel lock pistols were common among cavalry, who couldn't tend to a match while riding. Tom --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:40:37 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Knife in lead hand PT2. Super long winded, sorry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Correct on both accounts, you guy's can find this fight clip at { http://www.sherdog.com/videos/videos.asp?v_id=38 } it is the Vitor Belfort Highlights Video. In JKD vitor does a "straightblast", in old style point karate they called it a "blitz". Either way Vitor never gave Wanderlei a chance to set up any thing. It was really a fluke win for vitor IMHO. --- Leo Daher wrote: > Phil Hurcum wrote: > >   > > Vitor Belfort, I forget who he fought, but he > entered succesfully and > missed with the cross, but it was successful enough > to > worry his opponent who took  a stagger backward. > Vitor > followed this up by straight punching. Like a one > handed bench press left right left right as he ran > forwards to his opponent striking continuosly. This > demonstrates a crude > but nonetheless effective Siniwali. > >   > > Vitor's opponent was Vanderlei Silva, himself a very > powerful striker. > The fight happened at UFC Brazil, and last only 44 > seconds before the > referee stopped it. > >   > > "Praise be that which toughens" - Nietzsche  > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:45:40 -0700 From: bhubbard@cogentmethod.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: ED 11.219 - WEKAF Sparring Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Brian, I've got a little background in unarmoured sparring. One DB Gathering, many sessions of UA sparring, and some real world. I'll give you my opinion. " 1.If someone has a background in unarmoured sparring (goggles only) is sparring with the WEKAF gear worth the investment of buying the gear?" I think WEKAF gear is well worth the investment. The first reason being that you can experiment without paying the price physically yourself. Another thing is that you can get someone else to wear the gear and then you can practice full force without breaking any bones. And lastly you can practice combinations and targeting on the uneven surfaces of the body. People often complain that the gear is too restrictive but after you spend some time in it and break it in, you get comfortable in it. One question you need to ask is have you ever hit a head hard enough with a stick to knock your opponent out? If you haven't done armoured sparring then the answer is usually "no". If it's "yes", I feel sorry for your training partner. The gear allows you to practice and hone that skill and skills like them. " 2. Is fighting in my usual largo fashion (i.e. stay out, go in to get a few power hits, and get back out) a viable strategy in a WEKAF tournament or will I get DQed for trying to KO my opponent?" The chances that you'll KO your opponent are very poor in WEKAF gear because the helmet does pretty good at absorbing the shock. There are many different groups that participate in WEKAF style sparring and there is a variety of different thought and theory surrounding how to fight. The arnis instructor you're working with seems to advocate what I call the "stand and deliver" method where they don't back up and instead they "hit while being hit". His is not the only method nor the predominant methodology. Doing that type of work develops certain skills. Personally, I advocate a "hit and run" style of moving in and out doing small numbers of HARD hits in bursts. You won't get DQ'd for trying to KO your opponent, but you will most likely get tired. I would say that your usual tactics are perfectly legit and it's simply a difference in style with the arnis guy you're working with thats causing the contention. When you spar with them you will basically fall back to your own style anyway unless you try to pick up what he's trying to teach you. That "controlled sparring" that you're referring to as "weird flowy pretend sparring as performance art crap" is called palusot or palakaw and is where you develop jamming and checking skills. You may find that moving in and out and actually landing the hits is not as easy as it seems. There is the chance that the teacher out there is still learning and is not that good yet. I wouldn't judge the whole shabang by him alone. "3. Is doing WEKAF style tournament fighting worth doing at all?" WEKAF sparring is definitely worth doing. The gear allows you to practice your stuff on a moving breathing uncooperative opponent without breaking them. I suggest doing armored and unarmored sparring on different occasions. By doing both you can benefit more than just by sticking to one. In WEKAF gear you can do whatever you and your opponent deem is legal however in WEKAF sanctioned tournaments there is no thrusting, butting, punching, or grappling because of the large number of serious injuries that occured in past competitions. Effectively that restriction focuses sparring on the development of striking skills. One thing to keep in mind of course is that sparring is not fighting, it's a practice wherein you can develop skills used in fighting. WEKAF gear allows you to get one step up in intensity without tossing partners in the trash by injuring them. WEKAF sparring is also not point sparring even though there are points involved. It's continuous motion and not stop action. A bout is comprised of three rounds each one minute long with ten to thirty seconds rest in between. Strikes are not counted but rather the judges see who dominates and to what degree. I say buy the gear and give it a go. They may change your mind on things or you may change theirs. The gear lasts for years and is relatively cheap compared to that for mainstream sports. If you never try you'll never find out. Bart Hubbard Capital Doce Pares www.capitaldocepares.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] wheel locks To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> FWIW, western state-of-the-art firearms of the above mentioned era would be >> wheel lock guns. Assuming fairly dry weather conditions, they were still >> very troublesome in their operation. > > Ray, > > I was under the impression that the wheel lock was rather expensive to > manufacture and delicate. My impression was that the mass-issue weapon of > choice was the matchlock, until the arrival of the flintlock. I think > wheel lock pistols were common among cavalry, who couldn't tend to a match > while riding. Probably correct. Wheel locks were the most advanced of the time, yet still not very dependable. Match locks were even less dependable, esp in very wet humid environments. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "A. RANEY" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:43:42 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] BADMINTON Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Does anyone play a sport such as badminton to improve one's stick fighting abilities (hand eye co-ordination and that sort of thing) ? Also, I am new to this list...are grudges between respondents common or are the current ones abberations? Andy _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN Premium. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "WoodyTX" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 12:20:26 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The first time I saw a WEKAF tournament, I had to keep from grinning at the way the sport has evolved (devolved?). While there is definite skill and speed involved, I saw little real world effectiveness. Of course, this was a regional event, and I have no idea how representative it is of the sport worldwide. But what I saw gave me the same impression you seem to have. To answer your questions (THIS IS MY OPINION; yours may differ): 1. Could be. If that's your only chance at sparring, go for it. Maybe you can convince this instructor that he's barking up the wrong tree, and show him the error of his ways. 2. You'll lose because in one wrap-up, he'll land more blows than you did the entire round. Apparently a knockout power shot to the head/neck is scored the same as an ambiance to the shoulder. You will, however, be much more effective in the real world. Which are you training for? 3. You can probably guess my opinion on this. If all you focus on is training WEKAF style, I think it can be detrimental to your street skills. But it's probably better than nothing at the moment, and you don't have to be locked into their mindset to fight with them. Kurt Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:20:31 +0000 (GMT) From: bphillips211@sprintpcs.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Question for the old hands.. I am presently half a world away from my usual instructor and playmates. The base I am deployed to (for another 3 months) has an arnis class. (snip) My questions to the group are.. 1. Is sparring with the WEKAF gear worth the investment of buying the gear? 2. Is fighting in my usual largo fashion a viable strategy in a WEKAF tournament or will I get DQed for trying to KO my opponent? 3. Is doing WEKAF style tournament fighting worth doing at all? Thanks for any input. Brian --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "WoodyTX" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] How do you defend against this? Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 12:30:05 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I liked the idea of the flamethrower, but you should realize that a Cat D9 weighs about 50 tons, and that was before he started adding all the steel and concrete to it. I don't know where you can get a crane that will lift that. Personally, I would have contacted the local National Guard unit or a nearby military base for an antitank weapon or a Hellfire-equipped helicopter. I know there are legal issues, but those can get worked around when lives are on the line. Kurt Message: 6 Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 18:07:42 -0700 (PDT) From: T I To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: How do you defend against this? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You could also use a crane to pick the unit up with a hook or magnet from the steel plates that have been welded in place and drop him from about five plus stories or start slamming him into an empty building. Tommy --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:56:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Artigas To: eskrima Subject: [Eskrima] Spanish Fencing vs. FMA and some other ramblings Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Steve, You were mentioning the fact that most combat between the Spanish and the Filipinos were conducted with weapons other then swords. You mentioned the use of crude firearms and such. This would make sense but these weapons had a slow rate of fire of maybe 3 rounds a minute much like a musket. It was quite common in the warfare of the time to fire off a volley or two then close with the enemy. During which time it would only make sense that a blade or bladed weapon would be employed as well as the firearms being used as bludgeons. But if you are looking for the very first recorded exposure of the Filipinos to Spanish fencing I would have to refer you to the Journals of Antonio Pigafetta. He was the chronicler aboard Magellan's ship. In his account of their stop in the Philippines he mentions a great celebration during which he says the men put on a demonstration of weapons and fencing. I am not trying to say that the demonstration happened and that wham escrima was instantly born. It is however the first recorded chance for intermingling of ideas. I am not trying to take sides but am a firm believer in the fact that fencing had a great influence on the martial arts of the Philippines. I feel that we had three major outside influences on the Filipino Arts those being the Chinese, the Spanish, and the Americans and that each influenced a different area of the Philippines. Now as for the second point that everyone seems to be up in arms about that of which art is better. I say it is not solely the art but the individual artist. Now the third issue traditional martial arts. I feel that in most traditional martial arts, including those of western origin that are currently available to us, there is a prevailing sentiment of "Why change it if it is working?". This type of an attitude causes an art to stagnate. I have seen this in many of the "traditional" martial arts. While in the FMA and some more "nontraditional" arts one sees more of an attitude of "adopt what works and make it your own." This can be seen in one of our principles/concepts that is missing in so many of the "traditional" martial arts that of Flow. Flow when broken down is really the ability to adapt to change in midstream, it is a flexible mindset. Other arts are so wrapped up in specific responses to specific attacks that when something out of the ordinary comes along they freeze up because of one or both of the following reasons, what I like to call option overload and or a stiff mindset. I challenge you to find an advanced level FMA stylist who when thrown into another martial art cannot adapt to the style. I found that after training in the FMA I could adapt to any other MA I encountered. I could pick-up their techniques quickly and could quickly adapt to the new movement patterns. Why because of the mental flexibility and body control I learned in the FMA. I apologize for the long rant and must admit that I went off on a tangent. I step off of my soap box now. Peace and Respect, Joseph L. Artigas P.S. Gat Puno Baet, I remember you mentioning a while back that you are a chef. I was wondering if you happen to have a good recipe you would be willing to share for home made Tosino as well as any other recipes you would be willing to share. I am trying to learn a bit more of Filipino Cooking. I need to get back to my roots. Salamat po. P.P.S. Anyone else with good Pinoy recipes please feel free to share. Thanks in advance. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Larry St. Clair" To: Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 13:00:25 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Brian, I think you are on the right track. Sparring with anyone is a good method to test your abilities. On a side note, if you get a chance record it because you can go back and chart your progress while also tweaking your game. As for investing in the gear I think it is a good thing because you can always put someone else in all the padding and make them chase you down to work your drills :) We have used the larger helmets off and on and they are a great investment. Most people we have worked with at the Regional Tournaments have helped supply gloves and body armor which has been nice because then our team did not have to purchase everything. We just walked in with our own head gear and determination. I like your strategy of in and out. We used that a great deal at the WEKAF Regionals here and I think it worked great. There is of course no other contact except with the far end of the stick but it still gives you a chance to work against other fresh opponents. The only thing we were looked at funny was holding the opponent. I would say in this type of venue the hard thing to work against is the small tip tap type witiks at close range. There are many and you should work your Hubad to get strong with your break in break out method. I hope this helps and good luck sparring, Larry RE: ......... My questions to the group are.. 1.If someone has a background in unarmoured sparring (goggles only) is sparring with the WEKAF gear worth the investment of buying the gear? 2. Is fighting in my usual largo fashion (i.e. stay out, go in to get a few power hits, and get back out) a viable strategy in a WEKAF tournament or will I get DQed for trying to KO my opponent? 3. Is doing WEKAF style tournament fighting worth doing at all? I strongly believe that I should test my skills against people outside my school, but at the same time I have nothing but contempt for "point sparring". Thanks for any input. Brian --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest