Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:50:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #221 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics (gints@att.net) 2. Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics (Ray Terry) 3. Mr Pugil, Clarification (GatPuno@aol.com) 4. RE: BADMINTON (Bobby Indas) 5. FilipinoTocino Recipes (GatPuno@aol.com) 6. European MA vs FMA (steven ledwith) 7. Thanks Bobby (Ollie Batts) 8. JKD (Ollie Batts) 9. FMA/JKD in North Carolina (Jared Dame) 10. Re: FMA/JKD in North Carolina (BudMan6137@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: gints@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: bphillips211@sprintpcs.com Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:54:46 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >I have been chatting with the >instructor and it's become apparent the only >way I will ever get him to spar with me (as >opposed to doing this weird "flowy pretend >sparring as performance art" crap) is to >use the WEKAF gear. Brian, Full WEKAF gear is expensive, and the situation you describe requires two sets. If someone really wants to spar, they will find a way. If your opponent requires WEKAF gear to spar and doesn't own any, chances are high that he has never sparred with it anyway. So, you'll probably end up buying two sets of gear that will sit in storage, kinda like my two sets do. As for the value of WEKAF sparring, I've never participated in WEKAF tournaments. However, I did find the gear to be most useful for entry level sparring when I was preparing for my first Dog Brother Gathering. Also, I think it's good for sparring practice when you're training with longer, heavier stick and want to avoid injuries. You can do a number of rounds and come back the next day without the welts and bone bruises. BTW, where are you located ? I'm between San Francisco and San Jose, CA. Gints Klimanis --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 13:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sport WEKAF sparring is to real stickfighting as sport Taekwondo sparring is to real fighting. Better than no training at all, but it does not really approximate combat. Moving in and out, through the ranges, is not easily done. You'll usually pay in both directions, in and out. In real combat if you can close the distance you typically don't want to then go back to largo range and start all over again. If you can get in, stay in and finish it. Of course, if you get in and find yourself getting bested you'll want to back out to largo range, if you can. For sparring what we've found that works well is Taekwondo headgear and racketball glasses. Protects your eyes, protects the head from cuts, but permits the force of the strike to be felt well. No gloves, elbow pads, knee pads, etc. Just a mouthpiece and maybe a cup. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:40:24 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Mr Pugil, Clarification Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Pugil, Your question is has been answer by yours truly, on early post how the Filipino make the art effective than the Spanish Fencing. Again, I will say it again, The Spaniards Fencing is very linear, attacking techniques, Defensive techiques, the body positioning and footwork is linear too, the Filipino Arts are known for angular footwork, attack and defensive techniques, that make it more effective that Western stylist, wether they used swords, saber or stick. But we also used linear, that we adopted from the Spanish fencing. This linear footwork and attacking way of the fencer was absorb by the FMA and used them to take advantage for longer reach. But The angle footworks of FMA still the best techniques to used against this type of attacking pattern, wether they slashing or thrusting especially in Largo Mano style of Eskrima. This what we called 99.9% vs 00.1% Largo mano stylist is choosed to stay outside the Danger Zone, and the opponent was trap inside the Danger Zone by the Largo Mano stylist. Now lets go back to the original topic, and question of yours. I really feel the you a have different motive to you question. Remember your question is that the FMA is copied or somewhat came from Western fencing? I give you the answer that and diffenrence of the FMA and western fencing, I told you we are not denying the influence, nor not acknowledging it. Well, I also mention that I can back this up 100% percent. Somehow your reply or your next post is coding some of your English Historical background, which I think is not relevance to FMA so I intent to put that to end of the discussion, becaused I can see that you have different topic that you are talking about. I also intent to tell you, that i AGREE and the point is well taken, I even praised you sharing your historical back groound of the wetern fencing. But the truth that matter is you raised the questioned of FMA. I dont see in anyway the history that you post is relevance to FMA. So I said that I I will leave you alone. It happen, that my student Al, trying to clarify your post is somehow confusing, and leading to diffent direction. I also feel that it does not matter what the answer is, you are determine to undermine us to what point being raised. And please dont tell me, you dont know the History of FMA since you are practitioner of this prestigious arts? We can continue or stop this back and port post, and your question never gonna be answer completely, becaused you have not really looking for answer. > Mr. Pugil wrote: > "What was ineffective about the Spanish methods in the first place?" > > "How did the Filipino's make "...it more effective."?" > > These were not meant to be trick questions. And neither was I trying to > 'pull anyone's tail', offend them, or put them, their system or heritage > down. I simply asked, what I thought to be, legitimate questions in my > search for fundamental knowledge and understanding of the relationship and > connection between the old Spanish methods of warfare, and how the > Filipino's improved on those methods of fighting with swords - as I did not, > and still do not, know the answers to those questions. > > That reply leaves me somewhat bewildered. How is that supposed to answer my > questions? In any case, why would it need to be a pissed off Filipino? > Couldn't a calm and rational Filipino also demonstrate the differences in > effectiveness between the old Spanish system (as used by Magellan and his > crew) and the Filipino system? As well as show me what the Filipino's did to > make the system "more effective"? . I have experience fighting fencer, back home, and they are really lost to the angular footwork that we do FMA. My father studied Foil, and Saver from Catholic Priest of Paete Rev. Father Antonio Jacobe on 1943, during Japanese occupation of the Philippines. He become the Champion of Fencing in Urani, Bataan on 1951, the Torneo de Esgrima (he was 21 yrs old at that time). He always tell me practice Arnis and you can easily defeated the fencer. Corto Abaniko is used by fencer and adopted by FMA and made it Largo and Corto. Crossado is the common slash of Fencer and saver fighter, adopted by the FMA and name it Krusada, or sumbrada fraile. The difference is is the application of FMA is wide and open, the fencer their body is so tight, is really designed only mostly for defensive techniques, while the FMA is used as offensive and defensive techniques. > > Seekers of the truth are surely entitled to ask questions, and then to > question the answers? I always believed that the debate was lost when one > person feels that the only way to answer a tricky question is to take up > arms to somehow try to prove their point! If you and I fought, and you were > to beat me - a probable outcome - that still wouldn't answer my questions. > > I'll speak no more on the matter on this forum. Clearly it is not the done > thing to ask such questions. Instead I'll go re-read Peake's 'Three to One' > for further inspiration, and then go train some more. > > > Pugil > > Mr. Pugil, I dont want you to stop posting, nor bring it back this type of question, but I think, you answer your own question, I still believed you are trying something here. But hey I will stand to what I said, and I would answer back your questioned if you raised one. If you stick with FMA please read as much FMA book as you can, becaused one book cannot answer all your question. And try to be atleast pretent that you are on FMA side when you throw the question, your question is really might have double meaning. You want the answer but you refused to look at it and acknowledge it. This is end, pardon me Mr. Pugil. Sumainyo and Diyos at patnubayan ka, Gob be with you and guide you, Paalam (bye) Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet GAT Group International --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Bobby Indas" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:52:58 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: BADMINTON Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Andy, I used to play badminton when I was in high school and to tell you the truth there are lots of things you can adopt from that sport. 1. Eye-hand coordination (you are correct). 2. Jumping from point A to point B. 3. Lastly – the stances. Unlike tennis that you lower your body a little bit to even up your eyes almost to the net. Most of time when I play I used the L-shape stance with my right leg at the back and switching them when receiving. Also, there is one sport that we Filipinos knows and are familiar with. The “Sepak-Takraw”. Think of it as a volleyball using your feet, legs and head (mostly feet). The net? Is almost as the same height as the badminton. There I developed my stances, balance and leg muscles. Hope it this helps. Bobby > >Message: 5 >From: "A. RANEY" >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:43:42 +0000 >Subject: [Eskrima] BADMINTON >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >Does anyone play a sport such as badminton to improve one's stick fighting >abilities (hand eye co-ordination and that sort of thing) ? > >Also, I am new to this list...are grudges between respondents common or are >the current ones abberations? > >Andy > _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://youroffers.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:06:39 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FilipinoTocino Recipes Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Joseph, Here are the simple Tocino Recipes; 2 lbs -Pork belly with fats, or pork shoulder slice 4 of an inch thick 4 tbs -Paprika powder 4 tbs -granulated garlic 4-tbs -granulated onion 1 cup -brown sugar 2nd grade 4 oz. -soysauce Procedure: 1/Place the thin sliced pork belly and all ingredients on one small bowl stir all the ingredient till every meat is completely cover with all spices and marinate over night at room temp. then Refregerates. 2/ Fried the Tocino to a skillet, with little oil just enough to cover the skillet midium heat to prevent burning the sugar mixture. Okay enjoy your home made Tocino. Just e-mail me to any recipes you wanted to have. Suggested starches, potatoes, Fried rice, white rice, green banana, Yuca, or sweet potato. okay enjoy, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > , > > Joseph L. Artigas > > P.S. Gat Puno Baet, I remember you mentioning a while back that you are a > chef. I was wondering if you happen to have a good recipe you would be willing > to share for home made Tosino as well as any other recipes you would be > willing to share. I am trying to learn a bit more of Filipino Cooking. I need to > get back to my roots. Salamat po. > P.P.S. Anyone else with good Pinoy recipes please feel free to share. Thanks > in advance. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 15:00:12 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith To: eskrimadigest Subject: [Eskrima] European MA vs FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have borrowed this from real fighting ( http://www.realfighting.com/0503/rmartinezframe.html ) It is : Traditional Fencing: A Western Martial Art By Maestro Ramon Martinez East is East and West is West, but Sometimes They Do Actually Meet And it sheds a little light on this subject with some historical facts. The article is long and has much more info than presented here. "Since I have mentioned Filipino martial arts, there is something that needs to be made clear. The belief has long been held that FMA derives most of their technique and theory from Spanish rapier and dagger methods. This is not at all true. In fact, there is absolutely no solid historical evidence that this is the case. It is true that much of the terminology that is used is derived from the Spanish language, but then, the archipelago has had a long history of contact with Spanish culture. Magellan made the first contact with the Philippines when he landed in 1521. By 1565 a trading post was established, and by 1600 the city of Manila was founded and galleons regularly sailed from Acapulco to Manila. The Philippines were ruled by Spain from the end of the sixteenth century until the end of the Spanish American War in 1899, when they were acquired by the United States. The three hundred and sixty years of occupation and resulting cross culturalization clearly explains the use of the Spanish language within the native Filipino martial arts. Mark Wiley states on page 39 in his 1996 book Fillipino Martial Culture, "The Spanish methods of employing the rapier and dagger was taken into the Philippines in 1521 by way of the Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan, sailing under the flag of Spain…" This is impossible for a couple of reasons. First, the Spanish School (La Verdadera Destreza), was founded and created by Don Jeronimo De Carranza, who wrote his treatise in 1569. He was thirty-five years of age when he completed his text, placing his date of birth circa 1534. This leaves a discrepancy of 48 years from the time that Mr. Wiley asserts that Spanish rapier and dagger methods were introduced to the Philippines. Secondly, the type of weapon that would have been carried by Magellan and most of the other officers in such an expedition would have been a military sword with a wide, straight, double-edged blade, more than likely with a simple medieval-style cruciform hilt. This type of sword was capable of splitting a skull, taking off an arm, or severely wounding a leg. In fact, during this time the dagger as an auxiliary weapon would not have been commonly used in a military context. A rapier is a completely different weapon. There are several different theories of where the word "rapier" comes from but the strongest evidence indicates that it originates from the Spanish term espada ropera (dress or costume sword). The rapier is a totally civilian weapon, different from the military sword in that it generally has a long slender blade and an elaborate swept or cup-shaped hilt. The biggest misconception about the rapier is that the edges were dull and that one cannot cut with it. This is false. In the historical treatises that deal with rapier fencing the use of cuts was always covered as part of the repertoire of techniques. Although the rapier is used primarily for thrusting, it has always employed a variety of cutting techniques. " __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:06:50 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Thanks Bobby Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Many thanks for your welcome input Bobby. By the way, it's not 'Mr Pugil', but simply 'Pugil', my pen name on these forums. Pugil Message: 1 From: "Bob" To: Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 00:53:17 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Eskrima: Missing the point Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Pugil, Sir: These are in reply to your questions: I am not stirring any controversies but posting my views on the discussion... --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:13:43 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] JKD Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bill, Yes we still train and teach JKD Concepts. In fact, I recently received my 2nd Level instructorship under Rick Faye, from the Minnesota Kali Group, U.S.A. (Inosanto lineage). Who was it, and which forum was it posted on? The problem with the internet is that people can simply log on and post what the hell they like. There's an old saying: 'Don't believe half of what you read in the newspapers'. Where the internet is concerned that saying needs modifying to 95%+ of what you read! Pugil Message: 8 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 00:22:53 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Attn: Ollie Batts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Ollie, A woodbe JKD student on another forum has stated that your academy has stopped teaching JKD. Is this true, if so, why? Bill --__--__-- Message: 9 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Jared Dame Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 15:55:03 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] FMA/JKD in North Carolina Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey all I am looking for anyone that can recommend a school in North Carolina around the Raleigh area, I am looking to move from California to NC in the next six months and would like to meet up with others in the practice. Any suggestions??? thanks, Jared Dame --__--__-- Message: 10 From: BudMan6137@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 19:18:18 EDT Subject: Re: [Eskrima] FMA/JKD in North Carolina To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I live about 30 mins. from Charlotte and have been training in Bobby Taboadas' Cuentada Balintawak for about two years now and I highly recommend it. Go to www.balintawak-arnis.com for more info. We will have our World Camp Seminar in Huntersville on the 18th and 19th of September if your in town by then. Kman --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest