Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 18:08:04 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #222 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: BADMINTON (gints@att.net) 2. Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics (gints@att.net) 3. Eskrima: Missing the point (steve kohn) 4. Attn: Ollie Batts (Bill Lowery) 5. Re: Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics (Ray Terry) 6. Wekaf Sparring (Phil Hurcum) 7. WEKAF sparring (Deveyra, Tito A.) 8. WEKAF gear (sdrape@kbs-system.com) 9. The return of Al Sardinas or...My instructor can beat up your instructor (steve kohn) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: gints@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:46:37 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: BADMINTON Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Andy wrote: >Does anyone play a sport such as badminton to improve one's stick fighting >abilities (hand eye co-ordination and that sort of thing) ? I was on the varsity tennis team in high school for a year until I was kicked off for sustaining in a knee injury in a weekend soccer game. Anyway, I found that both sports have heavily influenced my stick fighting even though the sports aren't exactly stick fighting. I try to get some court time every now and then for variety. I find that having to choose your target (area of tennis court) before you hit the ball is a good cross-training exercise. The footwork of tennis and soccer are a good change up from the usual nearly stationary FMA training (partner drills and target practice). >Also, I am new to this list...are grudges between respondents common or are >the current ones abberations? Grudges bring out the best in everyone as long as they don't linger on for more than a couple of days. Gints Klimanis --__--__-- Message: 2 From: gints@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 23:49:15 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Ray Terry wrote: >For sparring what we've found that works well is Taekwondo headgear and >racketball glasses. Protects your eyes, protects the head from cuts, but >permits the force of the strike to be felt well. No gloves, elbow pads, knee >pads, etc. Just a mouthpiece and maybe a cup. Hello Ray, What type of weapons do you use with this sort of protective gear? --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "steve kohn" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:06:04 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Eskrima: Missing the point Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net   Pugil, This is a wacky thread. The Filipinos simply added what was pertinent to their needs. Art shouldnt ever stop growing...regardless of the source of the influence. All input is good input...even if you choose not to apply it. Regards, Steve Kohn >From: "Bob" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Eskrima: Missing the point >Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 00:53:17 -0400 > >Mr. Pugil, > >Sir:  These are in reply to your questions:  I am not stirring any >controversies but posting my views on the discussion... > >You wrote: > >"What was ineffective about the Spanish methods in the first place? >How did the Filipino's make "...it more effective." > >---I am not saying that the Spaniards that time their methods are >ineffective.  I was saying that they have their methods of fighting are >also superior but these methods were incorporated by the local fighters >by learning theirs - they found these methods and abilities were closely >defied when they were defeated. > >"How come the Spaniards, having used bladed weapons for so long, >couldn't >figure out for themselves that their system was either ineffective, or >could >have been improved upon? > >---Let's just say for argument sake. > >"Japanese Technology is by far effective and durable than other western >technology. how did they do that?  They studied and studied the methods. >breaking up into several pieces and made it more effective than the >counterparts".  The concept there is similar to what they did.  I >believe all forms of fighting methods are effective or ineffective. it >is how to understand the system and applying it.  ".Could have been >improved upon"?  To answer that -- yes, they improved their ways of >fighting before they went to war. > >".Are you therefore suggesting that the Filipinos is more intelligent >than the Spaniards?" > >--I'm not suggesting nor implicating that Filipinos are more intelligent >than the Spaniards I'm only expounding or clarifying what was there >before. their style was superior enough to understand by the locals and >made improvements or adopted their abilities and that they were not >ashamed by it. > >Respectfully. > >Bobby Indas >Balintawak Style >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list,  1900 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 01:07:21 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Attn: Ollie Batts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Ollie, The woodbe student signed himself as Toby, describing himself as a 17 year old student. Its on the martial arts planet forum. He was asking about other people teaching JKD in your area and stated that your academy had recently stopped teaching JKD - which is why I was asking. Bill --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >For sparring what we've found that works well is Taekwondo headgear and > >racketball glasses. Protects your eyes, protects the head from cuts, but > >permits the force of the strike to be felt well. No gloves, elbow pads, knee > >pads, etc. Just a mouthpiece and maybe a cup. > > Hello Ray, > > What type of weapons do you use with this sort of protective gear? Whatever the student is used to swinging. e.g. your basic 7/8" to 1.25" diameter, 26" to 30" length rattan stick. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:50:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Hurcum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Wekaf Sparring Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Probably didn't expect this much feedback eh? ;P I like the WEKAF gear. Excellent for drills. We do some really intensive drills with the guys and reduce our chances of reptetive chronic injury by using the headgear and the aprons to some dgree. Personally I like lacrosse pads for collarbone protection and the kidney protectors for kidneys. Much more flexibility. Gint's is probably spot on though. You lay out a lot of cash for gear you don't always use. The WEKAF fighting is ok I guess, I prefer full contact myself. IT IS pretty intimidating when you start, after you do it a couple of times the rush really kicks in. We will do modified WEKAF matches to create stamina and endurance in the guys. It is really good for that. As far as realism,, it blows. Tournaments, well my experience was really negative. I sent students to one and attended another personally. I will not participate again. My experience was to see a lot of favouratism and politics in action. Lot's of attitude. Huge parts of attitude. I think because everyone is killing each other over and over again and being scored artistically it loses it's reality. Everyones ego is still intact. Full contact, well it's kind of hard to fib about stuff when your buddy drops you or a limb stops working momentarily. hee hee. As far as as the strategy goes, yours will not work. You have to go almost chest to chest with each other and land deathblows while receiving death blows. Afterwards whoever the referee knows better will be declared the winner. Always waiting for feedback. P.S. i am going to be in some trouble for writing this as one of my instructors is or was the Canada rep for WEKAF. ;P Phil ===== Phil Hurcum .:Head Instructor:. Arkangel Martial Arts and Combat Sciences "Honour, Duty, Obligation, and Discipline" www.arkangelmartialarts.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:50:34 -0700 From: "Deveyra, Tito A." To: Subject: [Eskrima] WEKAF sparring Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There is a purpose for WEKAF gear, in my opinion - that is, to be able to learn how to hit, hit rapidly and hit hard - without injuring your partner. Just like any other art, method, system, or type of practice there are, not surprisingly, bad practitioners out there. Unfortunately, when you see these they give whatever they are practicing a bad name. It is not representative, though, of the purpose of the exercise - that is, if done correctly. I have seen bad use of WEKAF gear where the participants were just flailing away. Sometimes you see people seemingly tap or pat people on the head. When I first saw this I was thinking "This is awful. This is ugly. There is no power. It's all pattycake hits. It doesn't look effective. How is this useful? " Think of it as boxers wearing gloves and head protector. Yes, you will encounter bad boxers. It doesn't mean that boxing is bad. Just the boxers and the trainers. But when I met people that actually knew what they were doing, explained to me what to do and explained what the purpose and limitations of it are, I began to understand its place in the whole scheme of things. I can assure you that there are very good escrimadors here in the US and Cebu that use the WEKAF gear that I would not want to go up against. They will not hesitate to fight in all out matches without head gear, goggles, face masks or any type of protector. I mean, that's how they fought before. Yes you can try to tackle or grapple, but if you got hit across the face several times without a face mask it will stop you cold. In WEKAF gear practices, I've seen several people get hit at least 5 times on the head before they can come in and tackle - in several of those I've seen brand new rattan sticks broken. Now imagine this without any protection of sorts. While in Cebu, I an old master told me a story of how one got hit several times in rapid succession. The last hit actually detached this persons retina. They had to ride an hour jeepney to the hospital (I believe with the thing hanging off). When my instructor, Magtutudlo Ramon Rubia (or his wife Eva Ceñete-Rubia) hits me on the head with a helmet, even at close range (corto) Cacoy style and at only half power, believe me it goes through the helmet. We're not talking about one single hit here but 3-5 penetrating hits. If he hit you in the body you will get bruised (as in black and blue) even with a body protector. Let's not even talk about when he steps back and changes to Momoy style and starts barraging you with largo mano hits and Momoy style corto linear. I got hit once so hard on the shoulder, with gear on, that I could barely lift my arm afterwards. But then, like the old folks that he's trained with that fought in the olden days in Cebu, he (and they) tell us that the gear is only one of the, but not the only, training tool of the art. It is an important vehicle. But it isn't the be all and end all. Like a brush, if you know what you are doing you can be Michaelangelo. If you don't, you're just Bob The Builder (no offense to Bob). Tito Deveyra San Miguel Eskrima Doce Pares --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 04:11:23 +0300 From: sdrape@kbs-system.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] WEKAF gear Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > RE: ......... > My questions to the group are.. > 1.If someone has a background in unarmoured > sparring (goggles only) is sparring with the > WEKAF gear worth the investment of buying the > gear? IMO, no. While putting the gear on a sparring partner might give you some practice in being able to hit with more power than usual, the normal thing that happens is you learn bad habits. Defense seems to get lost, and hitting your opponent is already the easy part. The goal is in not getting hit while delivering your own blows. Besides, if you really think you need it, the gear is very easy to make. We put some together years ago using nylon web straps and rip-stop nylon. Make a vest and a skirt with pockets, and add as much cardboard or other padding material as you fel you need. > 2. Is fighting in my usual largo fashion (i.e. > stay out, go in to get a few power hits, and > get back out) a viable strategy in a WEKAF > tournament or will I get DQed for trying to > KO my opponent? I participated in WEKAF events in the past, and I have attended 2 World Championships here in the Philippines as a spectator. Unless things have changed drastically in the past couple years, WEKAF tournaments don't have any strategy, beyond the two fighters trying to hit each other as many times as possible. The normal fight is done toe-to-toe with no defense evident and very little footwork or technique. It is most often just a lot of ting-ting-ting on the headgear. Good for a laugh but useless otherwise. > 3. Is doing WEKAF style tournament fighting > worth doing at all? See answer 2 Steve --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "steve kohn" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:56:48 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] The return of Al Sardinas or...My instructor can beat up your instructor Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Al, It really is a good idea to let Gat Puno speak for himself as he always does a great job with no hint of anything to prove. Seems like a great guy actually. And..i have only heard good things of his talents. You make me remember why I used to hate the band The Doors. Good music, annoying fans. You shouldnt put such an ugly face on your system/religion. Gat Puno must want to jump out of a window when he reads your posts. Ya know...kinda like when a parent sees their kid go to prison. If I want to be preached to regarding the less-than-superior path I've chosen, I'll be sure to attend church this Sunday. Remember Al, there are only superior martial artists, not superior martial arts. -Steve Kohn p.s. I look forward to hearing more of the things "you know to be true".   >From: GatPuno@aol.com >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] Mr. Pugil/ You got me again >Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 22:53:59 EDT > >Mr. Pugil, > >You made me laugh. You want it, you got it. First of all. I intent to put the >topic to an end (period) that you open up in regards of FMA having copied >(influence) to the Western Fencing, becaused, your later post, is not making >sence to me that you are interested to find the relevance of FMA and Western >Fencing. You have a different motive, that why you raised that questioned. You are >interested to share your History of your country and or the Western Fencing >effectiveness. > >On your last post, I already felt that what you are doing. This  similar >question, is has been used before and when the topic is taken, then it will insert >his orignal intent. Why dont you just shared that history without dragging >other thing in the question that not make sence. > >Anyway, I understand your view, but you are trying to used other people, on >your example. Well can you fight like this people or fighter that you talking >about. I am not  using other example, I personally telling you, I will back >this up 100%  anytime. > > > > In reply to Al, > > > > I thought your instructor does very well speaking for himself Al ;o) > > > > But, just so you know it, I DIDN'T misunderstand his point at all. > > > > The thing is, YOU misunderstand my point, being that MODERN-DAY Fencing is > > not the same as it was in a previous age - a point also made by Ray Terry. > > In addition, there were many differing points of view, throughout the West, > > as to which method was best at any given time, anyway. Different Fencing > > Masters, in the same and different countries across Europe, were constantly > > evaluating and arguing with one another as to which was the best way to use > > different weapons. Everyone had a point of view (just as you and I do!) and > > thought their way was better than everyone else's. > > > > Having a single contest against one modern-day Fencer doesn't prove anything > > about an earlier and entirely different method. It doesn't really prove that > > much about the efficiency and effectiveness of the modern-day system either, > > as I am sure you can also understand! > > > > Pugil > > > > -- __--__-- > > > > From: Ollie Batts > > > Ok Bobby, > > > > What was ineffective about the Spanish methods in the first place? > > > > How did the Filipino's make "...it more effective."? > >Mr. Pugil, its hard to explain, but if you are interested to see, just try to >pist-off one Filipino wherever you are. You dont need to ask twice, I will >guarantee you, you will get what you are searching for. We are known for action >more than words. > > > > > How come the Spaniards, having used bladed weapons for so long, couldn't > > figure out for themselves that their system was either ineffective, or could > > have been improved upon? > > > > Are you therefore suggesting that the Filipino is more intelligent than the > > Spaniard? > > > > Pugil > > > >I dont see any claimed that we are intelligent, difinitely not. Spaniards are >also our mentor to the modern worlds. We learn from them not only how to run >a modern government, also how to live like the rest of the worlds, modern >civilization. > > > > > Message: 10 > > From: "Bobby Indas" > > > > > > "I agree with Gat Puno's point.  The spaniards had their methods of fighting > > (fencing) but The Filipinos made it more effective." > > > > > >On the final word, Mr. Pugil, you got my attention, and I will give you fair >rights,  to say whatever you want behind that computer, I will make sure not >to copy that from you. This is who we are Filipino, we talk back like Filipino >and we fight back like Filipino. FMA is a never ending journer of the >Philippine warriors, and if you become part of the FMA, you become part of the never >ending journey. For the meantime, I will let you go ahead and talk as you want >about FMA. God bless you, and I hope you enjoy your arts, as of me, FMA is my >art and so damn proud of it. > >Butot ko hila ko (Its my tail, I pull it), Bakod ko linis ko (My backyard, I >clean up). > >Laging Handa( Alway ready), > >Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet >Laguna Arnis Federation Interantional >World Harimaw Buno Federation >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list,  1900 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest