Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 03:01:50 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #223 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. European Influence on FMA (Stephen Lamade) 2. WEKAF and Largo Mano: Steve (Al Sardinas) 3. Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics (gints@att.net) 4. Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics (gints@att.net) 5. Re: European MA vs FMA (abreton@juno.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 01:31:21 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] European Influence on FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Maestre Ramon Martinez (quoted by Steven Ledwith) is quite correct when he states that: "Since I have mentioned Filipino martial arts, there is something that needs to be made clear. The belief has long been held that FMA derives most of their technique and theory from Spanish rapier and dagger methods. This is not at all true. In fact, there is absolutely no solid historical evidence that this is the case. It is true that much of the terminology that is used is derived from the Spanish language, but then, the archipelago has had a long history of contact with Spanish culture." However, it remains plausible that during the 400 years or so of Filipino/Spanish conflict and interaction, each side became aware of the other's fighting methods and that some European techniques became incorporated into some Filipino schools of fighting. In those 400 or so years, European methods of fence would also evolve and encompass a wide range of different military and civilian styles of combat, some of which were exported to the Philippines, and some of which must have been observed by Filipino fighters. By the same token, however, the use of the personal sword by the Spanish in the context of waging extended warfare against the Filipino people remained necessarily marginal. The Spanish conquered using other methods than the sword. I believe that Wiley argues that Filipino fighting arts can be broadly broken down into three main categories: indigenous styles that recieved no influence from the Spanish, "classical" styles that received varying degrees of influence from the Spanish (from "almost none" to just "some" - is my take), and "modern" styles that emerged in the 20th century and continue to this day. Best, Steve Lamade --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Al Sardinas" To: Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 22:18:06 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] WEKAF and Largo Mano: Steve Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Regarding the WEKAF gear, good points made by Bart, Ray and others. Regarding the subject of Largo Mano (LM), there is no in and out. If a person is in the proper range then the person should be able to hit without being hit. The LM stylist adjusts the range when the opponent moves. However, this method will basically be ineffective with someone wearing gear. Steve, you have problems. Let me help you by naming one - reading comprehension. Respectfully (except you know who), Al Sardinas Student of The Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 3 From: gints@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 02:21:57 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >IMO, no. While putting the gear on a sparring partner might give you some >practice in being able to hit with more power than usual, the normal thing that >happens is you learn bad habits. As others have pointed out, the habits depend on the practitioner. At the very least, you can go "au natural" but pad up your opponent and wail away. This sort of dynamic target practice is superior to air-striking, static target practice or repetitive drills. It would be nice to have a training robot partner, but for now, we'll have to settle with padding up your training partner. At this point, perhaps we should separate "WEKAF-inspired" training from the tournament activity defined by WEKAF rules. Gints Klimanis --__--__-- Message: 4 From: gints@att.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 02:28:56 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: WEKAF, point sparring and Largo tactics Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Ray Terry wrote: >Whatever the student is used to swinging. e.g. your basic 7/8" to 1.25" >diameter, 26" to 30" length rattan stick. With raquetball glasses and "TKD" headgear to protect against rattan, are you guys pulling your shots or going 25-50%? Don't stick shots move the glasses or drive them into your nose? You're brave. Those are some big sticks for that kind of sparring. I sure wouldn't want to knife spar with aluminum or wood training blades with only raquetball glasses are protection. I used to do restricted knife sparring and padded club sparring with the raquetball glasses and don't believe that they are adequate eye protection against face-level thrusts. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 02:55:59 GMT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] European MA vs FMA From: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've seen this argument all sorts of different ways. What drives the historians batty is the armchair assumption since there was contact, there must have been an exchange of knowledge. They want to see "proof" of this in the form of historical evidence. >From the other side of things, the historians have to acknowledge that the historical evidence - in the form of manuals and such - are usually written way after something is originated. Add the fact that for most of history, only a certain class of society read and wrote, then you have a lot of stuff that never makes it to written word. Even today, with all the books and internet and such, do you think that if someone collected everything that's written on an FMA without any personal contact that s/he could master the art from that? Historically, we're limited to books and other written material, with maybe an emphasis for this discussion on "limited". The argument always seems to go to which art "came from" another. As martial artists, we know that pretty much every culture figured out ways to fight. Most martial artists I hang around with are very knowledgeable about several styles/arts, but if you ask them about an art they haven't officially studied, they can usually say something like "don't they do this". That little bit of knowledge comes from being interested and noticing things. I can't think off the top of my head of an example where one fighting style was 100% from another style. One could argue that the Gracie's did this with Japanese jujitsu, I suppose. But the point is that generally it's exposure to other ideas thereby expanding one's own 'paradigm' (to use the word appropriately). It's not that one art comes from another, but that it's tested against another culture, and that testing makes it go in a certain direction. One more point: people always talk about exchange of ideas from battles. Battles are only one way a indigenous population experiences an occupying entity/culture. I can't think of an example where the occupiers didn't use the local population for everyday menial tasks. That gives plenty of opportunity for observation aside from battle. What I'd like to hear about are historical examples from legal cases or other sources about how the class of Spanish that made up the occupying force in RP fought amongst each other and what kinds of weapons were used. Andy -- steven ledwith wrote: I have borrowed this from real fighting ( http://www.realfighting.com/0503/rmartinezframe.html ) It is : Traditional Fencing: A Western Martial Art By Maestro Ramon Martinez East is East and West is West, but Sometimes They Do Actually Meet And it sheds a little light on this subject with some historical facts. The article is long and has much more info than presented here. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! 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