Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 07:41:04 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #225 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: European MA vs FMA (steven ledwith) 2. Re: European Influence on FMA (steven ledwith) 3. The Spanish tercio (Steven Lefebvre) 4. WEKAF sparring (Van Harn, Steve) 5. Re: training in a sporting environment (Aaron Alejandro) 6. Re: WEKAF sparring (Ray Terry) 7. Stick sparring (Jared Dame) 8. Re: Espada y Daga drill (Aaron Alejandro) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 04:14:33 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] European MA vs FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Good stuff Andy. I always go back to a quote from Dan Inosanto " There are only so many ways to move the human body." and " if you give two kids a couple of sticks and some time they will learn, roof block, inside deflection, angle 1,2,3,4,etc with no help from anyone" just because there are only so many ways to move. I think George Silver originated the former quote. My guess is that ancient martial arts were similar in different cultures that used similar weapons. --- abreton@juno.com wrote: > I've seen this argument all sorts of different ways. > What drives the historians batty is the armchair > assumption since there was contact, there must have > been an exchange of knowledge. They want to see > "proof" of this in the form of historical evidence. > > From the other side of things, the historians have > to acknowledge that the historical evidence - in the > form of manuals and such - are usually written way > after something is originated. Add the fact that > for most of history, only a certain class of society > read and wrote, then you have a lot of stuff that > never makes it to written word. Even today, with > all the books and internet and such, do you think > that if someone collected everything that's written > on an FMA without any personal contact that s/he > could master the art from that? Historically, we're > limited to books and other written material, with > maybe an emphasis for this discussion on "limited". > > The argument always seems to go to which art "came > from" another. As martial artists, we know that > pretty much every culture figured out ways to fight. > Most martial artists I hang around with are very > knowledgeable about several styles/arts, but if you > ask them about an art they haven't officially > studied, they can usually say something like "don't > they do this". That little bit of knowledge comes > from being interested and noticing things. I can't > think off the top of my head of an example where one > fighting style was 100% from another style. One > could argue that the Gracie's did this with Japanese > jujitsu, I suppose. But the point is that generally > it's exposure to other ideas thereby expanding one's > own 'paradigm' (to use the word appropriately). > It's not that one art comes from another, but that > it's tested against another culture, and that > testing makes it go in a certain direction. > > One more point: people always talk about exchange of > ideas from battles. Battles are only one way a > indigenous population experiences an occupying > entity/culture. I can't think of an example where > the occupiers didn't use the local population for > everyday menial tasks. That gives plenty of > opportunity for observation aside from battle. What > I'd like to hear about are historical examples from > legal cases or other sources about how the class of > Spanish that made up the occupying force in RP > fought amongst each other and what kinds of weapons > were used. > > Andy > > > > -- steven ledwith wrote: > I have borrowed this from real fighting ( > http://www.realfighting.com/0503/rmartinezframe.html > ) > It is : Traditional Fencing: A Western Martial Art > By Maestro Ramon Martinez > East is East and West is West, but Sometimes They Do > Actually Meet > And it sheds a little light on this subject with > some > historical facts. The article is long and has much > more info than presented here. > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 04:19:51 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] European Influence on FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net What I got from Maeste Martinez is that the Spanish didn't bring rapier and dagger methods to the Philipines, but their military saber techniques. But I think it is absurd to say that the Europeans didn't know how to use angular footwork because it is not used in modern sport strip fencing. --- Stephen Lamade wrote: > Maestre Ramon Martinez (quoted by Steven Ledwith) is > quite correct when he > states that: > > "Since I have mentioned Filipino martial arts, there > is something that needs > to be made clear. The belief has long been held that > FMA derives most of > their technique and theory from Spanish rapier and > dagger methods. This is > not at all true. In fact, there is absolutely no > solid historical evidence > that this is the case. It is true that much of the > terminology that is used > is derived from the Spanish language, but then, the > archipelago has had a > long history of contact with Spanish culture." > > However, it remains plausible that during the 400 > years or so of > Filipino/Spanish conflict and interaction, each side > became aware of the > other's fighting methods and that some European > techniques became > incorporated into some Filipino schools of fighting. > In those 400 or so > years, European methods of fence would also evolve > and encompass a wide > range of different military and civilian styles of > combat, some of which > were exported to the Philippines, and some of which > must have been observed > by Filipino fighters. By the same token, however, > the use of the personal > sword by the Spanish in the context of waging > extended warfare against the > Filipino people remained necessarily marginal. The > Spanish conquered using > other methods than the sword. > > I believe that Wiley argues that Filipino fighting > arts can be broadly > broken down into three main categories: indigenous > styles that recieved no > influence from the Spanish, "classical" styles that > received varying degrees > of influence from the Spanish (from "almost none" to > just "some" - is my > take), and "modern" styles that emerged in the 20th > century and continue to > this day. > > Best, > > Steve Lamade > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 12:53:16 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] The Spanish tercio Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Everyone, Great information from all sides. The governments and military of Europe, were a great resource for written records of the various tactics and personnel that they utilized in the various wars. With the varying languages of the Philippines, much of the accounts only arise from the Spanish side in the use of the tactics that were implemented against the indigenous Filipino’s as well as against the Chinese and others who had already established trade outposts in the Philippines. Here is a little information on the Spanish Tercio, the primary Infantry tactic of the Spanish army from ~1525 – 1704. The Spanish working to improve the Swiss tactic of the square, developed the Tercio, by adding the firepower of the harquebus, pikeman and finally an administrative unit. The tercio’s effectiveness developed through the strict cooperation between both the pikemen and the gunmen in the same formation. With pikeman the tercio could resist enemy cavalry charges, and with the harquebus and musket they could offer withering fire to diminish the effective resistance of an enemy block of pikemen. In the sixteenth century a Spanish Squadron would contain ~3,000 men (this would change over time and development). It would contain about 1500 pikemen, 1230 Harquebusiers and 168 Musketeers., and officers. The majority of fire utilized by this type of Infantry would commonly be by row. Several rows of musketeers or harquebusiers, would line up and then row 1 would fire, drop to one knee or peel off to the rear, and then the next row would fire in succession. This tactic could lay down withering amounts of fire upon an enemy. There are very well documented examples of the use of this tactic displayed in the Battle of Jemmingen (~1568), The Battle of Mook (1574), and even in the Invasion of the Azores Islands (1582-1583). [The issues of wetness and humidity were well known by these professional troops and powder was well stored and maintained] As for who developed or influenced what, during warfare both sides will definitely develop methods to counter each other’s tactics, this is the normal evolution and developmental aspect of weapon and tactics, throughout history. Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Van Harn, Steve" To: "Eskrima Digest (E-mail)" Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 08:53:04 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] WEKAF sparring Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Brian wrote: "My questions to the group are.. 1.If someone has a background in unarmoured sparring (goggles only) is sparring with the WEKAF gear worth the investment of buying the gear? 2. Is fighting in my usual largo fashion (i.e. stay out, go in to get a few power hits, and get back out) a viable strategy in a WEKAF tournament or will I get DQed for trying to KO my opponent? 3. Is doing WEKAF style tournament fighting worth doing at all? I strongly believe that I should test my skills against people outside my school, but at the same time I have nothing but contempt for "point sparring" Reply: Define point sparring. I would define point sparring as similar to TKD or Karate tournaments. The fight stopped at every point and called by judges and tallied. First to 3or 5 points wins. WEKAF is not stopped at the point. It is a 10pt must system, similar to boxing in my opinion. The 1min rounds can go not stop, only stopped for similar reasons as boxing; clinch, warning, ect. I also have no desire to do Karate style point sparring. Some fights can be very simple. Other fights can have a tremendous amount of strategy displayed 1. Of course one can only speculate on your financial ability to invest in the gear but if one can reasonably afford books, weapons or DVD's, it could be considered a similar training tool to develop skill attributes. The bad habits one develops fighting armored(I'll go out on a limb here) could inversely be developed in unarmored. I would prefer to try to develop in as many areas as possible. Being well rounded means trying alot of things. If you think the $170 is too much, we used to make our own and used field hockey helmets and allowed thrusts, kicks, ect. It also allows you to practice different aspects and different weapons. We regularly use tunkod, sibat and tabak toyok with the WEKAF gear and we do not hold anything back. Hell, it's just plain fun for a change to blow off some stress. 2. Many WEKAF fighters are largo fighters and very successful at it. I have recently seen a very masterful win in the exact style you describe. Get in, get the points and get out without getting hit. If you can do that the whole fight, how could you loose? There are those judges that view backing up as a weakness but everyone has their opinion. Why would this get you DQ'd? I've only heard of one KO(I assume there are more). But why would you actually want to KO someone in fun? Certain schools do tend to go toe to toe but the better fighter will break that. 3.Well, this is a personal question for which everyone would have a different reason. Personally, for me yes. First off, if you only train unarmored some may never really mix it up enough(my opinion) for fear of the obvious consequences. As you state, get in-get out. This limits your combinations, the ability to develop flow under pressure, the ability to read reactions. You may develop better reflexes doing unarmored but only initially I believe. Not during the flow and not creative reflexes. It's not the fight but the lessons learned within the match that prove it's value. My classmate has a simple plan. Any real fight is over very quickly. Whether he wins or looses at WEKAF, the opponent will know after the first 30sec who would really win in combat. The rest of the match is just a fun learning experience. WEKAF has begun to push harder on realistic fighting and stressing defense, not just "ting ting". I would not want to win that way and we have never trained that way. Unfortunately, if you are not a good fighter, you can still survive in WEKAF and play the rules but the truly great fighters shine through. Also, are you concerned with winning at a sport or just becoming a better fighter? I have never trained to go toe to toe or ting ting. You can still do WEKAF and be true to your style. You just need to adapt to the rules. You can train to develop power on a bag or tires all you want but until you really unload on an opponent you just don't know. As we state, it's not who we are but something we enjoy doing. My sparring skills always jump up a notch after a tournament. Just the exposure to other fighters/styles changes you and pushes you to improve. WEKAF is also a safe way to develop the fighting spirit in students and get them through the fear/stress of all hell breaking loose in a real fight. In any venue there will be those who use it to glorify themselves in their own mind and twist the rules. But there are also those who see it as an opportunity to further promote the FMA, make new friends and improve their skills. For me the new friends and exposure are it's true value. Steve Van Harn Arnis Sikaran - Jornales System Sandatahan --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Aaron Alejandro" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] training in a sporting environment Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:40:20 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net No way....in true application. Kick in the "fight" or "flight" and the changes a body goes through to prepare for confrontation and one can quickly discover a MA school and a true life encounter are not the same and cannot be trained the same. To steal an analogy from Sijo Bruce Lee in the movie Enter the Dragon, "Boards don't hit back." Neither do techniques. We can learn techniques till the cows come home, but once hit, struck, kicked -- or even worse -- stabbed or shot a new learning environment has been established. Like most learning, experience is the greatest teacher and she does things backwards. Experience gives us the lesson first and then explains itself later. In no way am I advocating abandoning proven techniques, training, sparring or preparation. However, unless that preparation includes the development of real life self defense and street wise strategies and some "hands on" contact to physically challenge the "fight" or "flight" senses, one may be technique rich and delivery poor. Some have a training philosophy, higher learning through harder contact. Others may adopt a points system through a panel of "experts" or "judges". I lean toward the first line of thinking -- with some control based on MA experience and level of training. I've watch some extreme martial arts on the discovery channel. The gentleman doing the techniques was awesome, BUT he said he had never been in a fight or had to deliver the techniques in a fight? I just wonder how fluid, smooth or polished those techniques would look if he had been caught with a hook, uppercut, cross, jab or better yet a stick blow or on the receiving end of a knife -- for real - not points. Just my thoughts. Aaron Alejandro ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Davies" To: "eskrima digest" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:15 AM Subject: [Eskrima] training in a sporting environment > Can I put a topic up for debate? > > > > While discussing on a forum the following statement was made concerning > the difference in street defence and mma training: > > > > "if you spend most of your time training the fundamental delivery > systems in a sporting environment they will adapt easily to different > situations and strategies." > > > > Now, having a wealth of resource here on this list id like to ask if > people agree with this. > > > > iPat > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] WEKAF sparring To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 07:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply: > Define point sparring. I would define point sparring as similar to TKD or > Karate tournaments. The fight stopped at every point and called by judges > and tallied. First to 3or 5 points wins. FWIW, TKD is not point sparring. It is round based non-stop sparring, more akin to boxing. Or at least that is the case with TKD from Korea over the last 35 years or so. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Jared Dame Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 07:46:22 -0700 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Stick sparring Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I would have to say that a fencing helmet is the best protection from forward thrusts for eye, nose and mouth protection, I also have bought hockey gloves to protect my wrists in the 25% to 50% sparring sessions. Hockey gloves usually have a tremendous amount of padding and a hard shell that can prevent hurting the wrists. Protect your wrists and joints because they are our art! ciao, Jared Dame --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Aaron Alejandro" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Espada y Daga drill Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:55:39 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve and Ray both brought up some great ideas, techniques and concepts regarding Espada y Daga. I would also add that the Inosanto/Lacoste Kali structures and techniques are an awesome place to learn Espada y Daga drills. One Guro Dan's instructors, Sifu Harley Elmore, has been putting out well respected and talked about videotapes and DVDs on the various subsystems of Inosanto/Lacoste Kali. He has a great tape on Espada y Daga. Check it out at : http://www.warriorswaytx.com/videos.htm Aaron Alejandro ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Lamade" To: Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 12:45 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Espada y Daga drill > Ray Terry wrote: > > "Both players appeared to be very extended in their movements, not very > tight and crisp. On purpose?" > > That's correct - the extension of the arms is one of the major keys to > understanding this drill. > > My post was in response to Leon Salinel's post suggesting that espada y daga > styles (influenced by Spanish fencing) are characterized by the the "wide > open positioning of the espada and the daga vis-a-vis the usually in tight > weapon ready position of most Visayan eskrima styles.” I take Mr. Salinel's > use of "vis a vis" to mean "in response to" or "in counterpart to" "the > usually tight weapon ready position of most Visayan eskrima styles, and > therefore provided the Mpeg as an example of technique that relies on > extended movements as opposed to those that remain closer to the body. If > you look at this exercise in the context of how one typically uses a 3 1/2 - > 4 foot European rapier and 20" daga then it begins to make more sense as a > training exercise. I should also note that when looking at this clip in > slow motion, my training partner Dave Tillett (on the left) has far better > form than I do. > > The Mpeg is half of a simple 6-Count drill called "High Open-Close" (the > movements are repeated on the other side to complete the drill) from the > "Espada y Daga" drills in the version of San Miguel Eskrima that I learned > from Tom Bisio. There are twelve of these drills that develop in > increasingly complexity (up to 12 movements for each person) as one seeks to > find ways to counter and re-counter your opponent's counters and > re-counters, etc. Hence the order of the drills is systematic and > progressive to answer the "what ifs" that occur along the way. It is > interesting to note that these are "fixed" drills; other progressions such > as "Palusot" (similar to an espada y daga "Sumbrada" drill) follow fixed > patterns at first but eventually give way to free-style play. > > I think that the purpose of the fixed progressions in the Espada y Daga > drills is simply to build attributes and to develop "rules" for when one is > playing with European long sharp, edged, weapons, e.g.: > > 1. Keep forward pressure contantly > 2. Keep your stucture extended - don't ever allow it to be collapsed > 3. Power comes from the legs and waist - not the arms > 4. Movement comes from body-shifting as well as footwork > 5. Do not allow the espada to re-counter without simultaneously "checking" > with the daga > 6. Every movement with the daga is either a check or a thrust - and the > daga never stops moving > 7. Places where the stick moves across the opponent's body in a vertical > plane (i.e. a "sweeping" movement to block or counter a strike) are always > implict thrusts. > > However, these are rules in abstraction. Some will probably argue that > superior footwork, angling, and ability to get inside the point of the > opponent's weapon are essential to winning if one has a shorter (i.e. > "Visayan" or otherwise Filipino) weapon - and they are absolutely right. > > It's interesting to play with these drills using rapier and daga replicas > (double-wide epee or schlager blades with a rapier hilt for the rapier; > shortened versions with a "t-bar" type hilt for the daga). One notices that > the movements become much, much smaller when using these weapons and there > is a lightness and 'tit for tat" quality to the movements that will not > occur when using wooden weapons or shorter (18"-26") steel weapons. I > think that this is becuase the thrust with the tip of a rapier only requires > a body-shift of 2-3 inches and absolutely no gross physical effort > whatsover. I've noticed that whenever I've played with rapier and dagger > against a fencer who possesses a great deal more skill than I do, I get > skewered as soon as I let my structure collapse and allow my shoulders and > elbows to drift towards my body. It takes constant mental effort not to > allow that to happen, and is not as easy as it looks against a committed > fencer who knows to wear down and collapse your structure, get you to > over-commit, find the open line, etc. > > I have copy of Super-8 tape of two of Momoy Canete's students practicing > these drills. At one point he interjects himself and starts teaching one of > the students. I was told later by the person that he was upset that they > were using "too much power" and was basically disgusted that his senior > students were juicing it up for the camera. Looking at the way that he > starts performing the drill in this context, one sees precisely: > relaxation, smoothness, lightness, focus, extension, etc. - but not a lot of > footwork and raw power. Watch him perform other movements from other parts > of his system however, i.e., movements that depart from the architecture of > the Espada y Daga drills, and one sees a great deal of footwork and raw > power. The lesson that I take from this is that the Espada y Daga drills > are intended to teach particular aspects of fighting with espada y daga but > are not the whole story. If you will, the Espada y Daga drills are intented > to be a "window" into European rapier and dagger fencing styles - but stay > within the context of Filipino martial arts. Learn how to love your enemy, > in other words. > > It's interesting to note that when I play rapier against one of my FMA > instructors armed with a shorter Filipino sword - I lose, and when I play > shorter Filipino weapon against the same instructor armed with a rapier - I > still lose! > > There are two excellent instructors of Filipino martial arts in NYC who can > show you the relationship between European sword and Filipino sword far > better than I could: James Seetoo and Bill Schettino. > > Best, > > Steve Lamade > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest