Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 07:19:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #230 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: RE: acceptance of "exotic martial arts" (steve kohn) 2. Slingshot vs to your Barretta (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. re: Final Thought and thanks/Marc Mac Young (Marc Macyoung) 4. Re: Eskrima WEKAF armour (Jonathan Broster) 5. Training (doug tucker) 6. Re: Slingshot vs Barrett vs. Alien Robots with Laserguns (Phil Elmore) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "steve kohn" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: acceptance of "exotic martial arts" Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:16:19 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bobbe, That has to be one of the best posts Ive read. Beautiful. The main point in your post for me was regarding the building of a foundation. When I started training in the world of JKD concepts, i realized pretty early on that its probably best (that is to say, best for me) to immerse ones self in one art and understand the concepts surrounding the effectiveness of its techniques rather than concentrate on the techniques themselves. In the JKD world, too many folks concentrate on merely cataloging (sp) techniques for the sake of having a million answers for a given angle. If you develop a conceptual foundation (i.e center line, economy of motion, leverage) the art will begin to show itself to you and techniques that have never been shown to you will appear seemingly from nowhere. In hindsight, going to someone the caliber of Inosanto can be really confusing without a private instructor to break things down. Not because hes not a good teacher...quite the opposite actually. If one of his students feeds him an energy that wasnt what he wanted, hes forced to respond with the appropriate technical answer..and then explain it. When he teaches its like he's thinking out loud. For someone with a limited foundation, that can create option anxiety because of all of the systems he can draw from in real time. I guess what im saying is that you need to go to high school (for a foundation) before you go to college (for variety). After you build a foundation, explore all of your options. There are only a handful of concepts, which are universal, but there are thousands of styles that can grow from them. Best to all, Steve Kohn >From: "Bobbe Edmonds" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: [Eskrima] RE: acceptance of "exotic martial arts" >Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 05:44:05 -0700 > >I would like to address this idea of studying outside of your main teacher. >I have several students who train other styles, and some train the same >things I teach (Kali, Silat) at different schools as well. > >If you are an absolute beginner in the Martial Arts, or trying a new art for >the first time, then it is important to focus on building some solid >fundamentals before doing anything else. Too much food on your plate will >only cause indigestion, not nourish you. This is the same with martial arts, >since most arts teach different body mechanics, and most martial art >teachers have vastly different approaches to training. Too many Sifus, >Sensei & Gurus, and you will only walk away confused, not enlightened. In >this respect, usually only one teacher is necessary, and that for a long >period of time. However, I personally don’t know everything, and if I truly >have my student's best interests at heart, I will cultivate their skill >development and encourage them to seek out other points of view, as well as >skill in areas that I myself do not possess. In this age of computers & the >internet, it would be the height of idiocy to try to corral you into >believing I am the sun source of knowledge. > >Many instructors feel that “Membership” equals “Ownership”. This means that >you train with, and ONLY with, them. Also, seeking to better yourself by >expanding your education in the martial arts with other instructors is >considered “disrespectful”, “disloyal” and “ungrateful”.  In truth, it is >none of these things. A true teacher is interested only in the development >and advancement of his students, and should have their best interests at >heart at all times when instructing. When you were in high school, did the >teacher say it was okay to learn reading, but by god she better NOT catch >you in that math class!! > >...Of course not. Why is it we think exclusionary training is acceptable in >the martial arts? As Americans, we accept this standard NOWHERE else in our >lives, yet when it comes to training martial arts, we are being >“dishonorable”. Now, I realize this is an important aspect in many asian >cultures, and although understanding the culture from whence your martial >art came is important, it should not be overlooked that the same >circumstances usually do not exist in America. Our culture is just as valid >as anyone else’s, and deserves to be treated with equal respect. So, unlike >the accepted norm, the Edmonds Academy (my school) does not enforce the >culture, religion, language or idiosyncrasies of another country on it’s >students, although understanding for such is encouraged. Respect others, but >be who you are. > >In my school, “Loyalty” translates directly into “Hard Work: The personal >commitment to training, & effort to better yourselves”, not “Kowtowing to >Guro”. The class tuition is only part of the equation, a simple motivational >tool to inspire the student to get his money’s worth. The real payoff for >the student is of time and work/energy, the gift of knowledge & the personal >achievement of growth in the Martial Arts. I would like to see all who >receive training under me to surpass me someday. That would not be possible >by training solely under me, even if I taught them every last iota of >knowledge I had. They MUST seek out other points of view and methods of >training, if for no other reason, to help them understand their own. > >Now, I pay a small, annoying price for this freedom: I encounter the usual >barrage of questions when something I have taught conflicts with the "other" >training, and the student wants me to think for them instead of examining >the material they have gained. The wording will come across something like; >"In master Kwan's school, we do it like this. Which one of you is right?" >Usually, I tell the student to meditate on it for a few months, and tell me >what he thinks fits him best. However, I always try to show what my point of >view was when I taught whatever technique is in question. And I always try >to paint the other teacher in a positive light, since I usually don't know >exactly what they were teaching my student. > >Wow, this one turned out to be longer than I thought! > >Bobbe Edmonds > >Here lies a toppled God, his fall was not a small one. >We did but build his pedestal a narrow and a tall one. >-The master’s warning against arrogance. >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list,  1900 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up – now 3 months FREE! --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:58:44 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Slingshot vs to your Barretta Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 6/10/04 9:54:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > What's the defense against a Barrett M82A3 from 900 metres? This is not just > a facetious comment but the reality is, there is some weapon technologies > you just cannot beat with FMA. > > David Eke, The defense against a Barreta M82A3 fromm 900 meters is you as shield or target. That answer your question? Are we talking gun, then, let talk about gun, now if you want to talk FMA, let talk about FMA. When you ready, let me know. As of now, I have no answer to your gun question. So please I though I was in FMA forum. If you have a question in different things, unless if FMA, if you are serious to your question, then you better you can do it. Dont pull you gun, if you cannot shoot it. Or maybe your gun are not loaded, then my sling shut is enough to used as defense for that. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet GAT Group International --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:59:38 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] re: Final Thought and thanks/Marc Mac Young Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net GatPuno@aol.com > You never met me so you dont know what I been teaching to my student, and who > am really are. Very true, I can only judge you by the consistency and tone of your words. Having said that however, it is by those words being consistent with our actions, teachings and reflecting the wisdom we have gained (and pass onto others) that we gain respect of those who also have experience. Unfortunately, our choices of words can often reveal a great deal to those same people. Again, I dont based my word of what I have read in the book > and seen in the movies or on the street. While I can understand the movies, your words could also imply that you don't have much use for research or experience. And by extension, seeking counsel from other experienced people would, in all probablity, be out too. However, such a statement would be a foolish, presumptous assersion, so I will assume you mean something else. > I am speaking based on my own experienced. Yes we are confident to what we > have, and also aware and respect what your opponent can do harm for you. We > respect that, but we intent not to think about it negative, that make your mind > worry. I was taugh to think alway positive, and always guards. And I learned that underestimating your opponent is a very common and dangerous mistake. As was assuming what he would do based on your standards. > I personally not stupid to go against gun, off-course I will hide Damn, I wish I had thought of that. Me, I just used to wear extra large jackets to hide the body armour. first, we > talking here is the issue of the European Sword arts and FMA, not the whole > Modern war weapon. I seem to recall it differently, but okay. >We are not claiming we are invinceible, we also know that but > we are working hard to harness ourselves with good motivated training that > will keep us safe from someone will try to harm us. That the problem with this > writing and stuff, they can easyly bring the topic to something else. Stick to > what the subject is about. Is becoming personal, The topic is FMA vs European > Fencing, swords, and other similar weapon arts. Not the Modern Warrior art that > will detroy even metal. > > In regards of the clothing is not an issue. You mentioned all of this > medieval gear that the European wear, I am referring the Filipino art abale to look > where is the opening that we can iflict pain and target. Well, off-course, I > would never stickfight like wearing WEKAF gear, is not realistic to me. it > developed a false to the student that their techniques is okay, well to us 50/50 > is not good. If you went to fight for real and both of you are using blades, > 50/50 make both of you are dead. We were not satisfied to that kind of chances. > I was brain wash by 12 GMA of the diffent system and either one of them, not > believing in 50/50. > > The only good thing that I can saiy about WEKAF gear, its open a new avenue > for a new Sport for the FMA. And put more easy to market the art this way, > other thatn that, this padded developed a false confident and lack of timing, > becaused both fighter is busy giving move hit to each other more than avoid > getting hit and hit back effectively. > > Anyway, I like some of the point that you raised, and I will forever remember > that word, and thak you for the time that you put to write that response. I > will probably keep my way teaching, and let my student to decide for themselves > since we are adult and we take our own responsibility, let my student take > initiative to be responsible adult. the only thing I am responsible to them, is > keeping them aware of the reality of the street fight. Other than that, if > they were to fight, with the opponent with gun, usless they have a gun too fight > gun to gun, other wise run, run hide and wait, wait till you find a window of > opportunity to do some neccesary action for the situation. Keep an open mind > the reality in not ending on one fight or one opponent. > They can easy come back with numbers and weapons. > > In final, again, let me thank you for the some great thought, I hope I dont > offended you in anyway, I am just speaking on my own belief about FMA. I am > still stand to my principle. > > Just rememer there's many way to butcher a cow, and each buthcher have their > own way. It does not matter, how yoiu do it and my father and other instructor > of mine told me just find the fastest way. And to do this, you need to keep > searching with fastest way. > > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > GAT Group International > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 9 > From: "steve kohn" > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:36:03 +0000 > Subject: [Eskrima] WEKAF Gear > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Hi All, > > I've been to WEKAF tournaments and with all due respect to the skills of > Doce Pares practitioners (and I really mean that), I dont really > understand the point of the competition. I was taught that limbs and > joints are primary targets in the FMA's. In those competitions, an > incredible amount of shots are landed and no one reacts at all. I always > thought that shots to the limbs were used as a distraction to get to > either head shots or grappling/throwing techniques. > > For my money, I think the Dog Brothers are light years ahead of everyone > in terms of realistic stick fights. Ive seen Eric Knaus get in there with > nothing more than baseball batting gloves (NO padding) and his formidable > skill is what kept him safe (see "reality"). While that sort of > thing isnt for me, theres no disputing the reality of whats happening. > > Its tough to stay honest with too much padding. The less you use the more > real you will keep it. Having said that, Ill be staying on the sidelines > at the next Dog Brothers gathering. I've gone this long without a major > injury and I'm not about to start now. > > Respectfully to all (except you know who), > > Steve Kohn > > >From: GatPuno@aol.com >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: > eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] Final Thought and > thanks/Marc Mac Young >Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:27:09 EDT > > > > Personally though I tell my students not to do the stupid and dangerous > > > things that I have done. Because, as I have grown older I realized how > much > > dumb luck was an intergal part of my survival. I say this having > seen many > > fighters who were my superiors in that department get > killed because as good > > at fighting as they were, the guy standing in > the shadows with a shotgun was > > both sneakier and better armed. > > > > > > >Marc, > >You never met me so you dont know what I been teaching to > my student, and who >am really are. Again, I dont based my word of what I > have read in the book >and seen in the movies or on the street. > >I am > speaking based on my own experienced. Yes we are confident to what we > >have, and also aware and respect what your opponent can do harm for you. > We >respect that, but we intent not to think about it negative, that make > your mind >worry. I was taugh to think alway positive, and always guards. > > >I personally not stupid to go against gun, off-course I will hide > first, we >talking here is the issue of the European Sword arts and FMA, > not the whole >Modern war weapon. We are not claiming we are invinceible, > we also know that but >we are working hard to harness ourselves with good > motivated training that >will keep us safe from someone will try to harm > us. That the problem with this >writing and stuff, they can easyly bring > the topic to something else. Stick to >what the subject is about. Is > becoming personal, The topic is FMA vs European >Fencing, swords, and > other similar weapon arts. Not the Modern Warrior art that >will detroy > even metal. > >In regards of the clothing is not an issue. You mentioned > all of this >medieval gear that the European wear, I am referring the > Filipino art abale to look >where is the opening that we can iflict pain > and target. Well, off-course, I >would never stickfight like wearing > WEKAF gear, is not realistic to me. it >developed a false to the student > that their techniques is okay, well to us 50/50 >is not good. If you went > to fight for real and both of you are using blades, >50/50 make both of > you are dead. We were not satisfied to that kind of chances. >I was brain > wash by 12 GMA of the diffent system and either one of them, not > >believing in 50/50. > >The only good thing that I can saiy about WEKAF > gear, its open a new avenue >for a new Sport for the FMA. And put more > easy to market the art this way, >other thatn that, this padded developed > a false confident and lack of timing, >becaused both fighter is busy > giving move hit to each other more than avoid >getting hit and hit back > effectively. > >Anyway, I like some of the point that you raised, and I > will forever remember >that word, and thak you for the time that you put > to write that response. I >will probably keep my way teaching, and let my > student to decide for themselves >since we are adult and we take our own > responsibility, let my student take >initiative to be responsible adult. > the only thing I am responsible to them, is >keeping them aware of the > reality of the street fight. Other than that, if >they were to fight, > with the opponent with gun, usless they have a gun too fight >gun to gun, > other wise run, run hide and wait, wait till you find a window of > >opportunity to do some neccesary action for the situation. Keep an open > mind >the reality in not ending on one fight or one opponent. >They can > easy come back with numbers and weapons. > >In final, again, let me thank > you for the some great thought, I hope I dont >offended you in anyway, I > am just speaking on my own belief about FMA. I am >still stand to my > principle. > >Just rememer there's many way to butcher a cow, and each > buthcher have their >own way. It does not matter, how yoiu do it and my > father and other instructor >of mine told me just find the fastest way. > And to do this, you need to keep >searching with fastest way. > >Gat Puno > Abon "Garimot" Baet >GAT Group International > >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing > list, 1900 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright > 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers > apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups - now 3 months > FREE! > > > -- __--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > http://eskrima-fma.net > Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima > > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com > Standard disclaimers apply. > Remember September 11. > > End of Eskrima Digest --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:31:00 +0100 From: "Jonathan Broster" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima WEKAF armour Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, WEKAF competitions were never meant to be a realistic simulation of fighting, they are meant to be a sport that uses elements of the FMA. I have fought in a number of competitions, as well as representing Great Britain and have concluded: 1- these competitions are fun 2- they require a high degree of conditioning. (Many people have trouble moving their forearms after their first fight, with the combination of hits and exertion and being cooked up in the padding. 3- looked at objectively, the fights give a good indication of the speed and power a motivated attacker could turn on you in a real fight. 4- despite the armour injuries do happen; I have broken someone's hand with an abaniko through a hockey glove (at long range); I have seen someone receive a ruptured?burst?mashed testicle. Most competitors experience significant bruising. 5- some people are very good at taking the corto end of things and using it to really disrupt their opponents, while taking very few shots. Ultimately, like karate, judo, UFC etc competitions WEKAF is just that, a competition, a game it is intended to be fun, relatively safe and to promote FMA to those who are interested in safe, fun competitions. Face it, Dog Bros style fights are much more real, but very few beginners are going to want to get into that sort of thing, and some outsiders (eg McCaine (sp?) Rep. Az) might start to get involved if DB became mainstream. And don't forget, the armour can be very useful for other aspects of training, like for an attacker, so the defender can really unload after a sucessful defence. Jon "There's nothing more dangerous than a blunt knife!" http://www.geocities.com/jonbroster ... --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "doug tucker" To: Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:30:59 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "I remember Guro Inosanto referring to a stick competition where he gave a thai boxer ½ an hour training before he went onto fight. He became the champion that day! Does that imply, I wonder, that it's easier to take the athlete and adapt him to other circumstances? Will someone who is training for real life situations (which can never be simulated properly) have the same ability to adapt?" Isn't it largely down to the individuals mindset? His or her determination to succeed - or come to that survive. I guess as well that it depends on how many similarities there are in the field one is crossing over into. Taking the example above of the Thai boxer. I wonder if half an hours training would have been sufficient if he were a Tai Chi or Aikido exponent? I'm not saying that these are lesser arts than any other, simply that they use different tools and movement. In my experience the students that adapt to full contact stick fighting better than anyone else are those who already come from a contact background. Please note I did say that this was my experience. I have a pro boxer who's been with me for about 6 months now and in that time his training has consisted of roughly 70% knife defence and 30% stick work. A month or so ago we stick sparred for the first time and I was amazed at how good he was. Although I'd like to say otherwise, it's nothing to do with my input but purely from all those other attributes that have been developed and carried over from his boxing. Just my thoughts anyway. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 07:24:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Elmore Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Slingshot vs Barrett vs. Alien Robots with Laserguns To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net All self-defense involves risk. There is no human being who possesses the training and weaponry necessary, at any given time of the day or night, to defeat or circumvent all possible forms of attack. Training in the martial arts, *including* firearms training and training involving weapons like sticks, knives, and your empty hands are forms of mitigating, not eliminating, risk. They are a means of changing the odds in you favor -- a means of stacking the deck in the gamble that is self-defense. As I like to write at The Martialist, you cannot win every bet -- but you can cheat as much as possible, which is why I scribble "fight unfairly" all over everything I do. Stacking the deck doesn't alter the nature of the activity in which you are engaging. No matter how sure of your hand you may be, you are still gambling. Some people are better gamblers than others. Some people bet on long shots, while others fold early and often. I will now sit quietly and wait for my regular visit from the Extended Metaphor Police. Phil Elmore www.themartialist.com GatPuno@aol.com wrote: > What's the defense against a Barrett M82A3 from 900 metres? This is not just > a facetious comment but the reality is, there is some weapon technologies > you just cannot beat with FMA. -------------- - Phil Elmore --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest