Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:58:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #231 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Training (Patrick Davies) 2. Re: BADMINTON (Jeff Hazen) 3. Re: the basics and foundation (Kes41355@aol.com) 4. Fighting with no protection (Milt Tinkoff) 5. RE: Thanks, Steve... (Bobbe Edmonds) 6. Re: Fighting with no protection (Ray Terry) 7. Re: Re: training in a sporting environment (Aaron Alejandro) 8. Re: Fighting with no protection (Mike Casto) 9. Marc Mac Young/here a little of me (GatPuno@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:15:45 +0100 From: "Patrick Davies" To: Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Message: 5 From: "doug tucker" " I guess as well that it depends on how many similarities there are in the field one is crossing over into. Isn't it largely down to the individuals mindset? His or her determination to succeed - or come to that survive. I guess as well that it depends on how many similarities there are in the field one is crossing over into. Taking the example above of the Thai boxer. I wonder if half an hours training would have been sufficient if he were a Tai Chi or Aikido exponent? I'm not saying that these are lesser arts than any other, simply that they use different tools and movement. In my experience the students that adapt to full contact stick fighting better than anyone else are those who already come from a contact background. Please note I did say that this was my experience. I have a pro boxer who's been with me for about 6 months now and in that time his training has consisted of roughly 70% knife defence and 30% stick work. A month or so ago we stick sparred for the first time and I was amazed at how good he was. Although I'd like to say otherwise, it's nothing to do with my input but purely from all those other attributes that have been developed and carried over from his boxing. Just my thoughts anyway." Excellent post doug, seems to validate the statement. It would go along with my own developing conclusions on this topic, which fortunately mirrors the training programme I have been doing for quite a few years. Cross training needs to synergise for it to work imho. iPat --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:50:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Hazen To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] BADMINTON Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net AR: Does anyone play a sport such as badminton to improve one's stick AR: fighting abilities (hand eye co-ordination and that sort of thing) ? I've found that playing tenor drums in marching band helped immeasurably http://depts.washington.edu/drumpage/images/1996/shortbus/Drums15.JPG http://depts.washington.edu/drumpage/images/1996/shortbus/Drums16.JPG ...althought that's probably not easy for everyone to just start doing, without being in the right place at the right time (and with a little musical experience). Probably any sport where you swing a racquet or stick one-handed would help with hand-eye coordination and distance negotiation. I imagine racquetball would give you a great chance at doing all of the above while getting some exercise at the same time. Seems like most gyms with racquetball courts always have somebody looking for a partner to play with -- it shouldn't be too tough to find someone willing. --jeff "I found it. I found it. Ow! What's wrong with my arm?" -CKA --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:57:37 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: the basics and foundation Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve, Thank you, THANK YOU for saying that...this has got to be one of the best posts I've read in a looooonnnnngggg time. People seem to disregard the basic foundation so much of the time and end up intellectualizing the arts, rather than put in the years of blood, sweat, and tears it takes to lay the foundation that makes a warrior, instead of the "jack-of-all-trades and master of none" that is so prevalent these days. I have met, and sparred with, so, so many people over the years that can talk the talk, can talk you to death about concepts, ranges, and options, on and on ad nauseum, but cannot fight a lick. They can demonstrate their "concepts" in a very impressive manner, and put on one hell of a show. But when it comes time to put their stuff to the test, when the pressure is on, they fold like soft beer cans. As I've said so many times before, the proof is in the pudding. Thanks again, Kim Satterfield In a message dated 6/11/04 9:59:54 AM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > The main point in your post for me was regarding the building of a > foundation. When I started training in the world of JKD concepts, i > realized pretty early on that its probably best (that is to say, best for > me) to immerse ones self in one art and understand the concepts > surrounding the effectiveness of its techniques rather than concentrate > on the techniques themselves. In the JKD world, too many folks > concentrate on merely cataloging (sp) techniques for the sake of having a > million answers for a given angle. If you develop a conceptual foundation > (i.e center line, economy of motion, leverage) the art will begin to show > itself to you and techniques that have never been shown to you will > appear seemingly from nowhere. > > In hindsight, going to someone the caliber of Inosanto can be really > confusing without a private instructor to break things down. Not because > hes not a good teacher...quite the opposite actually. If one of his > students feeds him an energy that wasnt what he wanted, hes forced to > respond with the appropriate technical answer..and then explain it. When > he teaches its like he's thinking out loud. For someone with a limited > foundation, that can create option anxiety because of all of the systems > he can draw from in real time. > > I guess what im saying is that you need to go to high school (for a > foundation) before you go to college (for variety). > > After you build a foundation, explore all of your options. There are only > a handful of concepts, which are universal, but there are thousands of > styles that can grow from them. > > Best to all, > > Steve Kohn --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Milt Tinkoff Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:15:59 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Fighting with no protection Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've heard a lot of talk on various mailing lists, forums, websites, etc. from people claiming that they (or their students) stickfight with no protection at all, meaning no headgear and no gloves. But you know what, I've never seen a single mpg demonstrating this or even pictures of such a fight. Not one. Ever. If anyone has a link to a website with any kind of hard "proof" of this, please post it. I'm not impressed by stories. -milt --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Bobbe Edmonds" To: Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:51:53 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Thanks, Steve... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >"Bobbe, That has to be one of the best posts I've read. Beautiful."< Thanks Steve!!! I thought it got lost in all the recent posts of WEAKAF, guns, knives & history of styles. >"The main point in your post for me was regarding the building of a foundation. When I started training in the world of JKD concepts, i realized pretty early on that its probably best (that is to say, best for me) to immerse ones self in one art and understand the concepts surrounding the effectiveness of its techniques rather than concentrate on the techniques themselves."< This is exactly what I focus my students on, as well as myself when I train with a new instructor. My philosophy is to master one aspect FIRST (footwork, stances, body english, what have you) and start building your house from that. I have third-year students at my school who started their first six months just doing various footwork & striking patterns with & without a partner. They are pretty much self-correcting when they learn something new now, and need very little hand-holding from me anymore. Even in the eclectic, exotic, flow-based arts, a structured beginning is proving to be essential. Now, if I could just master the death touch...! >"In the JKD world, too many folks concentrate on merely cataloging (sp) techniques for the sake of having a million answers for a given angle."< I think this phenomenon can be found in almost every art, actually. Research Danzan Ryu Jiu Jitsu, & ask about thier "technique lists" sometime... >"If you develop a conceptual foundation (i.e center line, economy of motion, leverage) the art will begin to show itself to you and techniques that have never been shown to you will appear seemingly from nowhere."< Guro Inosanto said something like this back at a late 80's seminar: "Sooner or later, you will find a technique that flows with your training without me showing it to you...And you will think yourself a genius." >"In hindsight, going to someone the caliber of Inosanto can be really confusing without a private instructor to break things down. Not because hes not a good teacher...quite the opposite actually. If one of his students feeds him an energy that wasn't what he wanted, hes forced to respond with the appropriate technical answer..and then explain it. When he teaches its like he's thinking out loud. For someone with a limited foundation, that can create option anxiety because of all of the systems he can draw from in real time."< I agree, and I feel it must be equally frustrating for Guro I., because he tries to convey the culture, customs & language of every art he teaches, as well as the martial technique. I have struggled for years trying to find a balance between what I know vs. what I teach. As you said, not to be offensive to Inosanto, but it takes a long time to discern what is basic curriculum and what is advanced, using his method. And when you further investigate the styles he is drawing from, you see that THEY as well have conflicting opinions as to what is basic, advanced, what is reality & what is not. >"I guess what im saying is that you need to go to high school (for a foundation) before you go to college (for variety)."< Umm, actually, that's such a great analogy, Steve, do you mind if I steal it? >"After you build a foundation, explore all of your options. There are only a handful of concepts, which are universal, but there are thousands of styles that can grow from them."< Well, damn me all to hell, I'm-a stealing that one too!! Thanks for your points, Steve. Bobbe Edmonds Edmonds Martial Arts Academy You must adopt your fighting stance to everyday life. Thus your everyday stance becomes your fighting stance. –Musashi --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fighting with no protection To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I've heard a lot of talk on various mailing lists, forums, websites, > etc. from people claiming that they (or their students) stickfight with > no protection at all, meaning no headgear and no gloves. But you know > what, I've never seen a single mpg demonstrating this or even pictures of > such a fight. Not one. Ever. I have a video from unprotected stickfights at the summer gathering in Laguna, RP. The fights were, in fact, unprotected, but the fighters seemed overly concerned re making -any- contact whatsoever with their opponent. imho, not a shining example of effective eskrima. Perhaps these fighters were just beginners... not sure. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Aaron Alejandro" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: training in a sporting environment Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:59:59 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Patrick, Sorry to be so long in my response, just got back into town. Excellent points. I've heard that story from Guro Dan on several ocassions. My only rebuttle would be "how hard is the FMA training?". Another words, you could -- and I stress could -- have the same intensive controlled striking in the FMA. However, I must agree with your observation. Let's just notch up the FMA training and we'll both believe we're right. Aaron Alejandro ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Davies" To: "eskrima digest" Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 3:06 AM Subject: [Eskrima] Re: training in a sporting environment > Aaron Alejandro: No way....in true application. Kick in the "fight" or > "flight" and the changes a body goes through to prepare for confrontation and > one can quickly discover a MA school and a true life encounter are not the > same and cannot be trained the same. > > > > > > Thanks for the comments Aaron. Let me be devils advocate. > > > > The delivery systems here would be striking and grappling. Let us say for > example we take martial artist A who is training in boxing, muay thai and bjj > and for the purpose of the forum is also doing some FMA. > > > > Martial artist B is doing FMA > > > > If you had to put money on the outcome of an encounter between the two, where > would you put it and why? > > > > Ok, I know the information is limited what can we deduce from the two martial > artists? A is definitely an athlete in that he's training contact systems that > encourage a sporting environment that is - within safe parameters - as close > to fighting as fisticuffs can be. With his FMA we may presume that he may > understand the basic concepts of edged weapons. > > > > B however is training all the aspects of edged weaponry. Let us say B isn't an > athlete, doesn't jog, hit pads or break sweat a lot. However B does drill over > and over again. > > > > If you had to take one of these and put them forward to defend you, which > would you choose? > > > > I remember Guro Inosanto referring to a stick competition where he gave a thai > boxer ½ an hour training before he went onto fight. He became the champion > that day! Does that imply, I wonder, that it's easier to take the athlete and > adapt him to other circumstances? Will someone who is training for real life > situations (which can never be simulated properly) have the same ability to > adapt? > > > > > > iPat > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fighting with no protection Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:24:24 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've done it - but it wasn't videotaped. However, if you pick up a copy of the Karambit DVD from sayoc.com, there's a clip of a couple of the Sayoc guys going at it like this. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Milt Tinkoff" To: Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 1:15 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Fighting with no protection > I've heard a lot of talk on various mailing lists, forums, websites, > etc. from people claiming that they (or their students) stickfight with > no protection at all, meaning no headgear and no gloves. But you know > what, I've never seen a single mpg demonstrating this or even pictures of > such a fight. Not one. Ever. > > If anyone has a link to a website with any kind of hard "proof" of this, > please post it. I'm not impressed by stories. > > -milt > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 9 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:53:29 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Marc Mac Young/here a little of me Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Gat Puno wrote: > Again, I dont based my word of what I have read in the book > > and seen in the movies or on the street. > Marc Mac Young wrote: > While I can understand the movies, your words could also imply that you > don't have much use for research or experience. And by extension, seeking > counsel from other experienced people would, in all probablity, be out too. > However, such a statement would be a foolish, presumptous assersion, so I > will assume you mean something else. > Marc, I mean to say all of the theory of FMA that I am talking about is everything come from the wisdom of my Mentors and my experience as a fighter, before a teacher. I grow up in small town a rural area in the Philippines a town of Paete. Growing up we very poor in the Philippines, I only attended 2nd year in High School which is 10th graders over here. I was in the Mountain, Rice field, and Sweet water lakes all of my child hood to adult hood. Most of my training is done over in that fields. I seen only other Martial arts from neighbor TV, and sometimes, if got lucky to find an old magazines, with article about martial arts, that the only time, I can read something about other Martial arts. Kung Fu, Samurai, and other Chinese and Japanese MA. When nights comes, instead of watching TV, I hang out with my Dad and his Arnis groups practicing each other of their skills. I was grooms by the majority of GM in Paete, during my time as a fighter, they try to tell me to acquired Anting-anting, and I refused to do it, becaused I seen that Anting-anting is not true, and not make sense to me. But I learn few of the orasyon (Prayer) in case I face someone, that have strong Charm. I was in Philippine Army 232nd Infantry in Camp Capinpin, Rizal. Awol, for the reason of being harrassed and abused by my superior, I can take punches that he is giving us everyday, push up, and other descipline, that they giving us to do at the Camp. But I dont believed that my Sargeant is have the right to put a gun of any of us, specially the gun is loaded. So when my turn, I decide to dis-armed his gun (45 Cal) broke his rist and hit him with gun punyo to the face and I run after that, 7 Military Police is after me shooting me to the fields, but hey I think I am very scared and determined to scape, instead of being cought and put to jail. I know what going to happen if they cought me. So I was on the run for almost 3 months and surender to my Uncle which is Lt. Colonel in the Army at that time, I was Court Martial and found guilty, and funished. I went back to civilian life, and continue to train and fight in Arnis till I got a chance to teach the arts into college student as part of their Physical Education, under Modern Arnis Federation of the Philippines. I guess a have a bad luck, during my time teaching PE, ten of my student that not attending classes, got upset with me caused I failed them to their PE. So those ten student made plan to attack me after school, right in front of the school the I am teaching. Some are bigger and older than me. So I fought hem in the street. I realized I have to fight them, to survive atleast, I keep escapiong and intent to run away, but, I foguht 4 of them first, then when I scape from the 4 the 3 more boys is waiting for me on the other corner of the street, so I fight them, at one point I was fighting 7 then I able to scape again, run toward the South, guess what 3 more waiting for me over there so I was fighting those 3 and the seven is already right behind me, so I decided to go agains the wall and wait who will caome first and evry hand that I grab I break, every foot that land on me I break. So at the end of the fight, I am able to scape and run home. Then the next morning at 8 am, I was visit by a Police and invited to the Police Dept. for questioning, I ended up staying in jail till my court hearing, I lost everything, my Certificate in Modern Arnis was taken from me, my job was taken away from me, I was banned for fighting in Local Arnis Tournaments including my family. In the eye of the law their my student and I am their instructors or Master. So I feel I dont have no luck and always bad luck, anyway, my Dad got sick, and I was force to replace him as Body Guard of our Mayor of our town. As body Guards I experienced, gun points, knives treatening attack, multiple opponent just to protect the mayor. After one year, my Dad feel that I have so many enemy already so he asked me to leave Paete and go somewhere far from there to protect my self to the serious danger. That why when about FMA, I hold it in high regards becaused its keep me alive up to now, for many challenges I encounter and experienced. I am sorry if sometime, I often said to strong words, its becaused that the words, I though will clarrify my point of view as Fighter and Martial Artist. Thank you for the advice, I will difinitely look and read more different MA so I am not lost to their view points. We are open minded groups, we welcome everyone and we always, support other FMA especially if their vision, is to help promote the FMA. But I hope, somtime, we read the whole thing before we react on the words, and see what the root of the argument, before we throw a new question, on the discussion, that lead to something else besides the real question being asked. I am open to any question, comment, and other things, I am here not to fight to anyone, my purpose of being a member is to see the quality of FMA in here and supporting each other. I dont care what system, you are belong, I am interested to all style to learn, to sparr with, and exchange ideas, if there is anything, I see is wrong, I am not going to control my self to tell this person, what wrong, or even is positive, I will praised him, thank him. I think I will be lifetime student and seeking of the system, that will give me an insight to add to my arts. And I agree that all MA have something to offer, and I am not forgetting that eqully skilled fighter is tough to defeat each other. But i intent to stay in positive side so it will keep me ready for any cinrcumstances may arise. Anyway, I hope this way will give us all ways to express our thought, vision and philosophy to our arts. Salamat/Thank you, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet GAT Group International --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest