Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 08:27:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #232 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: ED 11.229 - Steve Kohn - Dog Brothers and WEKAF (bhubbard@cogentmethod.com) 2. Teachers in the SW (Colorado) (Walter Vorhauer) 3. Training near Ft Polk La. (Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness) 4. Laguna Stick fights (GatPuno@aol.com) 5. training knives (john smith) 6. RE: Fighting with no protection (doug tucker) 7. milt & no protection (rob mulligan) 8. RE; Marc Mac Young/here a little of me (Marc Macyoung) 9. Re: training knives (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:35:47 -0700 From: bhubbard@cogentmethod.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: ED 11.229 - Steve Kohn - Dog Brothers and WEKAF Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey There, First of all I want to point out that I have done a DB Gathering and I found it to be a very rewarding experience. I've done much more WEKAF style sparring and I've also found that to be extremely rewarding. The thing to keep in mind is that the both WEKAF tournaments and DB Gatherings are vehicles for the development of certain skills and mental states. The goal of them is the same, but the approach is different. When I trained for the DB Gathering I spent a lot of time on head shots and power strokes to the high lines. I went to the Salle Gascon on the Westside of Los Angeles and bought a 20 year old fencing mask that was so used and worn that it folded in half and the skeleton would not support the weight of the material. The vinyl or whatever material it was made of was flaking off so I had to stuff tissue in my ears to stop it from falling into my ear canal. The chin support broke during my initial practice session with some sparring partners so I had to wear a band-aid on my nose to stop the screen part from cutting it like cheese on a grater. It was essentially a screen door, the old flimsy trailer park aluminum type. If I got nailed on the head it would have completely cleaned my clock. And if the wind blew too hard it would have flown off of my head. My friend Steve Del Castillo and I both wore that helmet during the last outdoor gathering in Hermosa Beach. When I got to the gathering I had that helmet, a cup, a pair of light hockey gloves, and some soft knee pads. I fought two fights and out of shyness mostly didn't do anymore. You have to go up and ask people if they want to fight like you're at a club. I've never been to good at that. The first guy I fought was very good. I hit him with a couple good shots on the head and he worked my body, mostly my thighs and then rushed me into a grapple which we broke because my helmet came off while we were still standing. The only reason he was able to break range was because I was completely shocked that the head shots didn't do anything to him. The rest of the fight was mostly me trying to hit him and not let him into grappling range which is where he wanted to be. We traded a few blows back and forth and afterwards he gave me a little talk about what this whole thing was about: "learning and experiencing and getting better". I fought the next fight differently and tried to work on some things that I needed some development in. Afterwards I was pretty beat up mostly from my first fight. But I had grown because of the experience. My ideas about the DB as "reality fighting" had also changed. After my first fight I looked around and I saw that most of the fencing masks that people were using were the 3 weapon type which can be run over by a truck and retain their shape. They're advertised as not being able to be penetrated by a chisel pounded by your standard sized hammer. Almost everybody padded up their helmets with towels and cushions and in one instance a gel filled keyboard wrist pad. Gloves were also an issue. Knaus may wear batting gloves but none of the guys I fought or watched fight did. They wore extremely thick hockey gloves and I saw some where people had inserted metal finger splints in the digits to protect the fingers and others where they were modified with hard plastic and extra padding sewn in at spots. I don't think the DB advocate those practices, but they were the standard in place at the time that I fought. Now that it's indoors they might have a tighter reign on that stuff. I should also add that Knaus was the only guy other than myself and Steve that I saw wearing an old school mask. And Steve Kohn is right, it is formidable skill that keeps Eric Knaus safe. I went to the DB expecting a real fight. But my opponents didn't because that is not what it's really about and having been there before, they knew it. It's a vehicle for growth and brotherhood and not a real fight. There are restrictions on the techniques that can be used and the intensity at which you can use them. You can't be "friends at the end of the day" if your opponent is dead or maimed. So even though the people go at it hard, there is a measure of restraint. Overall it's a relatively safe and nurturing environment where you can develop certain skills and mental states. I always encourage my training partners and students to participate in it and I will do it again myself if Marc will let me after this post. :) Concerning WEKAF, I've learned a lot through WEKAF sparring. I've suffered a broken hand and broken fingers, bruises that lasted for years, and a concussion all in the course of training. It can be rough if you make it rough. It can approximate reality if you keep it real. It's a good tool to give students experience in facing the adrenaline rush without paying the price for "freezing" and other mistakes with long standing injuries. It also helps them work through those roadblocks. If done correctly and in the right mindset, it allows you to continually train as opposed to having a "healing" period between bouts of experimentation. As others have mentioned, you get a chance to hit a live target attacking you at full force with impunity. It also allows you to develop the skill of feeding your following blows off of the "bounce" you get when you land a strike. You can't develop that skill any other way, even on a bag or a tire stack because they are not alive and sentient. Being able to work with someone and not pull your punches is far better training for the "real world" than just bringing it close to the target and stopping. Being able to do it on a regular basis rather than just twice a year or at an annual "tournament" is also an added boon to training with the gear. Allowing yourself to hit and be hit when training for actual fighting is wrong, but during cooperative exercises it's a completely different thing. Hitting multiple times against an unwilling opponent is something that WEKAF people are good at. When doing those drills we are not trying to let the other person hit us. We're trying to jam them up and stop them while we hit them as many times as possible. My teacher, Ramon Rubia doesn't advocate the "50/50" as Gat Puno Abon has referred to. We always train to keep what we're doing honest. That's one of the reasons we were one of the only Doce Pares groups to participate in the DB. Steve and I both did a pretty good job of using the corto kurbada style in the DB as well. And in WEKAF, that's mainly what you use in tournaments. Some WEKAF people hit really lightly and others, like us, don't. Just like the DB, what it appears to be on the surface is not what it is actually. The DB Gatherings seem more "real" than they are and WEKAF seems more "show" than it is in reality. When you put your feet in both arenas as I have, then you can see that although their respective curriculum and emphasis are different, they are really only vehicles to train certain skills and mental states in an environment that is not "real" but a close approximation. And if you look passed the flash of each genre to their respective cores, you get more out of each and you can truly appreciate the value of each venue. Some WEKAF groups play the opposite way, hitting without regard to being hit, and there is some merit to that. If they can land some hot and heavies before their opponent can, then they win. Toughness is a damned important attribute. When I was a bouncer I saw the flailing style work for some people. Both sides come out swinging and even though they're both getting worked, one person is getting worked more. It wasn't how I handled myself, but then I had to be there all week and those guys only had to survive the night. Fighting is always somewhat damage control and every position is assailable. The bottom line is that when you train you can't be lazy and when you teach, the need to be vigilant doubles. I don't know where I heard it but somebody on this list said "Seekers of truth are entitled to ask questions and they're also entitled to question the answers." That's some pretty good stuff. We're seeking out what works. To desparage one methodology over another without trying to understand it first only limits yourself and if you are a teacher, your students. If the reason for putting down one methodology fails in terms of simple logic or seems to be based in emotion or prejudice alone, then it implies fear. Is it fear of the question, the way that you'd answer it, or the fact that you might not be able to? Anyway, back to the originator of this thread and the lackluster WEKAF guy. I say buy the gear, play smart and keep it real. See what you can do in the gear, but also see if there is something of merit in the principles of what he's trying to teach and not just the way he does it. Principles manifest differently from individual to individual. There really might be nothing there, but at least if you had the gear you'd get to beat on him and find out. Be Cool, Bart Hubbard Capital Doce Pares www.capitaldocepares.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:55:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Walter Vorhauer To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Teachers in the SW (Colorado) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greeetings to All, I just recently moved to the southwest part of the country (Durango, Colorado) and I was wondering if there are any FMA instructors or teachers within the 'four corners' area. I have a little bit of exposure to the FMA's when I was in the midwest, and was studying for about 3 to 4 months back there. As far as what I'm looking for, I'll take anything right now whether it be stick or empty hand, I'm open to whatever I can learn. If anyone could recommend anyone to me, it would be greatly appreciated. Also, on a side note, I was considering in purchasing Bob Orlando's tape on silat and kuntao. Has one ever seen or own any of his video, and if so, are they informative as far as the overall scope of what he teachs? Is it well produced? Likes or dislikes? Also, what about Professor Rick Hernandez tape, "The Art of Jing Shen Jie Fang Free Spirit Fighting"? Is his video series considered 'good' or not? Any and all comments are welcome, and thank you. Waltyr by --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:44:22 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Training near Ft Polk La. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have a student who is a Captian in the army and is being sent to Iraq. He is first going to Fort Polk La and wants to continue the training we've been doing. Does anyone know of someone in that area, military experience, that is a good hand to hand instructor? Thanks, Don _________________________________________________________________ Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:57:32 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Laguna Stick fights Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I have a video from unprotected stickfights at the summer gathering in > Laguna, RP. The fights were, in fact, unprotected, but the fighters seemed > overly concerned re making -any- contact whatsoever with their opponent. > imho, not a shining example of effective eskrima. Perhaps these fighters > were just beginners... not sure. > > Ray Terry > Hello, This is true, everyone is new Eskrimadores the one on those video. But some of them, is not new at all, but still not agressive, I dont know, I was dissapointed to some of the fights, but hey what we I can do? I am here, I can only request to keep the fight continue, not to much waiting to each other. But we are not the one fighting there. In Magdalena is something different, the tournament over there is July 19, this is done in Town plaza also of Magdalena, Laguna. So far, for the fast few years I havent recieived any video from them. But hey may be next time we go home, I will call the attention of all Association again. Also the Government is also giving them a hard time on the rules of the Tournaments. There so many thing now they trying to banned, unlike before everything goes. Anyway, I am still happy that the tradition of the un-protected-stickfighting still exist. In Majayjay laguna is March. Lumban is June 13 but I havent recieved any tape from there. Only the Paete Centurion Original has sent me a video tape every single year. We also have the November 4 in Bo. Ermita "Eskrima sa Banko" (which is Eskrima in long and narrow Bench". The Tournament developed balance and good centering techniques while being careful to be hit by their opponent. Next year is July 25, 2005, I am planning to go home for Battle of the Champion. All Champion only on this event. But I still going to have the biginner Tournament just keep them going every year. I also planning to fight this Tournament, if the majority of GM hopefully will allow me to participate this time, on 1998, they would not allow us to fights. Anyway if they not allow me, my student will probabaly will participates on the Bigginer Tournaments. If you plan to go and see Tournament in Lumban, magdalena, just please e-mail me first, for advice. I want to ensure your safety, Filipino is hopitable, if you dont do anything, they will leave you alone, but also be careful to those crooke Filipino. They can easily pretend friends and then take advantage of you. I am Filipino, but I am telling you I know there some Filipino dont care who you are. So please for your safety, e-mail me for advice. I got 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, Tournaments 2003 and I cant wait to see the progress of this 2004 Tournaments. Hope to see some of you someday over there. There rule to follow, which is suck rules, but hey is not us, the Governement is controlling that now. But hey I will work hard to find a way to bring it back to the olds way. The fights seems like not effective, but try to hit them, and they will hit you harder. So assume they dont know, I know the game, some of them is really I have to admit is really poor techniques, poorly coached, is not looks good at all. But hey their trying to gain experienced and go from there. We have to give them a chance, I am willing to give them this chance, I am sopporting this /tolunament for 11 years finacially and hopefully someday, we can bring it back the old rules. Gat Puno "Garimot" Baet GAT Group International World Harimaw Buno Federation --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "john smith" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 21:59:06 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] training knives Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, I recently started kali and I need to buy a pair of training knives. I am mostly concerned with weight and feel during solo warm ups, and safety when stabbing it at shoulder level during drills with partners. So far simple wooden dowels seem like a good compromise, but I've never really had to think about it before. I was just wondering what people's preferences and experiences were with the wide variety of knives I see I out there. Thanks _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "doug tucker" To: Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:08:11 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Fighting with no protection Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "If anyone has a link to a website with any kind of hard "proof" of this, please post it. I'm not impressed by stories." Maybe those that do it are secure enough with their own abilities and don't feel the need to prove it to anyone or impress you. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "rob mulligan" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 08:20:22 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] milt & no protection Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Milt,   Please get a copy of Pananandata tape “one” from ESPYTV. You’ll get to see some great unarmored freefighting from Master Marinas’ students, including a much (much!) younger me. All of the guys you see are or became Guro’s in Pananandata; including Spencer Gee, Robert Riviera (now separated from the system) and Uli Laeng. Then please post again with your thoughts. Hope you enjoy it.   Guro Rob Mulligan  www.kwikstik.com                         ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Getting married? Find great tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:24:24 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] RE; Marc Mac Young/here a little of me Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: GatPuno@aol.com > I mean to say all of the theory of FMA that I am talking about is everything > come from the wisdom of my Mentors and my experience as a fighter, before a > teacher. > After one year, my Dad feel that I have so many > enemy already so he asked me to leave Paete and go somewhere far from there to > protect my self to the serious danger. Indeed quite a bit of experience with violence. As for my fightting experience, I hurt someone's feelings once. What I can say from my experience however, is that -- speaking for myself -- I now realize that much of the violence that I found myself in was a result of my life choices, actions or words. In other words, even as a professional, I made the choices that put me into the line of fire. Indeed, in my younger days it seemed that I was a trouble magnet. Also in my professional days I had a gift for finding the 'hot spots." Fortunately, I not only had instructors who were good at the physical, but who also taught me the duties, responsibilities, people skills and the tricks of the experienced -- including how control violence before it happens. Most importantly they taught me how to conduct myself around very dangerous people. By dangerous I don't mean people who are angry and willing to use immediate violence to get what they want but "professionals." Those who seldom "move" but when they do decide that it is time to act, the odds against you surviving are very slim. This is why I strongly disagree with the "No rules in a streetfight" motto; dangerous people have all kinds of rules...especially about conduct. They tend to be rather cautious about engaging in behavior that would put them in conflict with people equally dangerous as themselves. This is an example of the respect of other systems I spoke earlier about. I have long maintained that you can tell a true "heavy hitter" by how they treat other heavy hitters and are treated by them in turn. As each recognizes the inherient danger of the other, they tend to conduct themselves in such a way that would not provoke such a response. Many of my friends have incredibly high body counts (my broTim, -- may he rest in peace --had killed well over two hundred people in combat -- three tours of Vietnam, including Tet). And yet, they tend to conduct themselves in a very respectful and courteous manner when dealing with each other. More importantly they are very cautious about not engaging in any behavior that could be interpreted as an attack (such as running on the Blvd, jokingly grabbing for a weapon or disrespecting someone else's system). Unfortunately, what I see quite frequently in the martial arts world in general is the violation of these codes of conduct in the name of marketing and increasing one's student base. The constant boasting, warring between systems/schools and endless dissing of other instructors and systesm is quite often used by so-called heads of systems to promote themselves e.g: "Come study with me! I am master of the ultimate fighting system! These other schools/systems are inferior!" might as well be translated into "Come give me your money! I am marketing my system by both disrespecting and encouraging my students to disrespect everyone else! And you young and foolish people who don't know any better will think this behavior is the mark of a true warrior...which I can make you one for only $10,000 and ten years of training!" Encouraging this behavior among students, is quite frankly both dangerous (if they end up among truly dangerous people) and obnoxious (if they stay in a safe middle class lifestyle).As it is neither appropriate or effective for either. Having said this however, and while I am loath to admit it, it is very much the marketing trend in the commercial martial arts business. And the smaller, more focused the market (e.g. FMA, silat, reality based self-defense systems) the more fierce the competion for a small, specialized student base. It has been my experience that the smaller the bowl that everyone is trying to eat out of, the more likely you are to see this marketing strategy. Credibility is a very precious commodity, and there are many ways to lose it. Not all of them immediately obvious to us when we are in particular position, frame of mind or fram a particular background. I do not question your fighting skills or your experience sir. Nor do I question your firm belief that the FMA have served you well. It obviously has. I am suggesting that most of the readers on the eskrima list are not in Cebu City -- and are in fact, of a different cultural persuasion -- and therefore they might not understand your passionate pride in your art, instead interpreting it as something else. I offer these thoughts for your consideration. Sincerely Marc Animal MacYoung --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] training knives To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I recently started kali and I need to buy a pair of training knives. I am > mostly concerned with weight and feel during solo warm ups, and safety when > stabbing it at shoulder level during drills with partners. So far simple > wooden dowels seem like a good compromise, but I've never really had to > think about it before. I was just wondering what people's preferences and > experiences were with the wide variety of knives I see I out there. Check out trainingblades.com. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest