Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:06:01 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #235 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Bob Orlando's Tapes, Dr. Andre Knustgraichen's tapes (Mike Casto) 2. Thank again/ Marc Mac Young (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. Re: Fighting with no protection (Milt Tinkoff) 4. Deniro quote (Marc Macyoung) 5. Re: comments of Marc Mac Young/here a little of me (Marc Macyoung) 6. Understated (Marc Denny) 7. Re: training knives (Phil Elmore) 8. Re: Fighting with no protection (Bobby Indas) 9. Real heavy hitters (Jeff Hazen) 10. Belated comments (Marc Denny) 11. Bob Orlando (Sidney525@aol.com) 12. Full contact no armour (doug tucker) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Bob Orlando's Tapes, Dr. Andre Knustgraichen's tapes Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:59:44 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net No, but I've trained with Dr. Andre on several occasions and he is excellent. I'd love to get my hands on those tapes. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gints Klimanis" To: Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 8:35 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Bob Orlando's Tapes, Dr. Andre Knustgraichen's tapes > >Walter Vorhauer wrote: > > Also, on a side note, I was considering in purchasing Bob Orlando's tape on silat >and kuntao. Has one ever seen or own any of his video, and if so, are they >informative as far as the overall scope of what he teachs? > > I have Orlando's VHS "Fighting Arts of Indonesia" and his two books _Indonesian > Fighting Fundamentals_ and _Martial Arts America_ The first book is the > best instructional Silat book I've read and I own or have read > just about every Silat book . Other Silat books are generally unfocused and > include too many stories and personal jabs to be considered instructional > texts, although they are still interesting to read. Donn Draeger's > _Weapons and Fighting Arts fo Indonesia_ is also fantastic as a reference > to styles and weapons, but it really isn't an instructional text. > Orlando's _Martial Arts America_ is a great read on the state of martial > arts and propagation into a new host culture - America. It's not a book > that is specific to any art, but you won't set it down to you've finished. > > As for his video tapes, I have not seen his newer tapes. I do own > "Fighting Arts of Indonesia". All I can say is that you'll get much > more from his book of similar title. I have a few Silat tapes from the > various teachers, though I haven't purchased any of the newer offerings > since 2001 or so. Of the tapes that I do own, I think Stevan Plinck's > tapes ( I own "Pukulan Pentjak Silat" and "Serak Series Volume 1)) are > pretty good. > > As for hunting for older tapes, I have one of Dr. Andre Knustgraichen's > "Pentjak Silat" tapes from dojotv.com. The company went bust before > I could snag the other two in the series. Has anyone here seen them? > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:40:15 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Thank again/ Marc Mac Young Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc Mac Young, > > What I am trying to say is I know how frustrating it can be trying to get > across something that you know works -- especially when you cannot clarify > to people what it is exactly you are talking about. Eventually you do get to > the point where you want to say to people "Why don't I just kick your a** > and show you what I am talking about" But you can't do that...tempting as > it might be. I really do have compassion for you and the frustration I sense > in your words. It must be doubly hard for you not only having this > experience, but also dealing with people from a differnt culture and in a > language that is not your native tongue. > > I wish you the best of luck and I hope that in some small way my words have > helped you. > > Sincerely > Marc Animal MacYoung > > Thank you for your wishful words. Yes it s help in many ways negatively and positively, but I will take it like what you said, wish you luck too. I will always walk the walk the I know, and talk the talk, that I know. I think, my English is gotten better over the years of using it. But hey, you absolutely right, sometimes, I confused people to the words that I used, open times have a double meaning and I dont realized it till next time I read them. Well, I promise I'll try harder to speak your language next times. In regards of recipes, I have a lot here, Asian, and French, Italian etc. just say it, I will sent it to you, I am familiar in Japanese Cuisine too, I was in Japan for Six months training for, Sushi and Sashimi and the whole Japanese cuisines. On 1985, I came home with the Grand Champs Gold Medal in Ice Carving Competetion, 3rd in Food Display, 2nd in Vegetable Carving and Gold also in Butter Carving. Saphoro, Japan. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet GAT Group International World Harimaw Buno Federation --__--__-- Message: 3 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fighting with no protection From: Milt Tinkoff Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:51:42 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >>>>> "Gints" == Gints Klimanis writes: Milt> I've heard too many stories over the years (which inevitably get Milt> exaggerated when there's no documentation to back them up) to not Milt> question them. That's why I like to see video. Gints> I think you're a too harsh on this matter. Video is a relatively Gints> new documentation method. Even within industrialized countries, Gints> very few have actually dropped the cash on such devices. It takes Gints> quite a bit of expertise, money and effort to make a video clip. Gints> Here's a quick test. During your time in martial arts training, Gints> how many photos or videos have you made available? Have you ever Gints> released a video clip ? If so, please send me a link. Understood. When I wrote that message, I'd recently been checking out a few martial arts websites that make claims of fighting unarmored. Some them have video clips of people sparring wearing full WEKAF gear, pictures of the master posing with swords, etc. so access to video equipment isn't always the issue. Gints> When you hear about unarmored stick sparring, it is usually Gints> something called flow sparring - a type of randomizing striking Gints> drill involving skilled practitioners. While I wouldn't consider Gints> that real fighting, the drill is nonetheless demanding. If you Gints> really don't have your skills "down", you will get clocked in the Gints> head and have your hands mashed. To keep the drill lively, Gints> lighter, shorter or even tapered sticks are used. It is sparring Gints> with a tighter set of restrictions to encourage the development of Gints> stick skills. Exactly what I was getting at, and people who do this type of training are to be respected. What I take issue with is people dissing Dog Brothers style fighting because of the use of masks and gloves and then trying to pass off their own unarmored flow drills as somehow being more realistic and dangerous. -milt --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:11:38 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Deniro quote Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > "As for my fighting experience, I hurt someone's feelings once." > > A fan of De Niro I see then Marc! ;o) > Pugil Do you have any idea how long I have wanted to use that line? :D It's like my friend who in Florida saw some guys obviously on their way to rob him in a parking lot. He got to his trunk and opened it before the muggers got close enough to pull out knives. Needless to say what he pulled from his trunk was a little greater distance implement... he still laughs at the fortune that allowed him to say "you brought a knife to a gun fight" M --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:18:09 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: comments of Marc Mac Young/here a little of me Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: "cfm" > I am a 7 year veteran correctional officer in a maximum security prison, and a > member of the emergency response team at that prison. Marc's comments are > very accurate about the nature of dangerous people. In my job I have seen > both types of violent people he describes, his words are both wise and true. Thank you for your kind words. As I tell people again and again, I have never invented anything in my life. All I am doing is reporting what I have seen as best as I can. It's right there if you look. It's when you don't see it and/or recognize it's significance that it can and will rise up to bite you. M --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 05:55:35 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Understated Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Gints wrote: "Even Dog Brothers have released very little match footage compared to the amount they've actually videotaped. And you know they have something like 50 bouts/year for the ten years from the Gathering events alone." Off the top of my head I would say that the number of fights in our archives is much higher than that. :-) yip, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 06:11:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Elmore Subject: Re: [Eskrima] training knives To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've reviewed several different training knives, including Sharkee, Ray Dionaldo's work, and Bob's Edges2 training blades. The reviews are on the Reviews page of The Martialist -- www.themartialist.com . Phil Ray Terry wrote: > I recently started kali and I need to buy a pair of training knives. I am > mostly concerned with weight and feel during solo warm ups, and safety when > stabbing it at shoulder level during drills with partners. So far simple > wooden dowels seem like a good compromise, but I've never really had to > think about it before. I was just wondering what people's preferences and > experiences were with the wide variety of knives I see I out there. Check out trainingblades.com. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima -------------- - Phil Elmore --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Bobby Indas" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Fighting with no protection Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:16:00 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net <> If anyone has a link to a website with any kind of hard "proof" of this, please post it. I'm not impressed by stories." Maybe those that do it are secure enough with their own abilities and don't feel the need to prove it to anyone or impress you. I agree with Mr. Klimanis: Simply put... LAWS. But if you are willing to see fights that are no protection, try and visit my country (Philippines)... you will not be dissappointed. Because the are some willing fighters to fight without protective gears -- seen countless of times. Though video is limited. Also they're not there to impress everyone for that matter... they are there for the purpose of references. Bob --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:23:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Hazen To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Real heavy hitters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Marc Macyoung wrote: MM: However, when I walk into a room full of heavy hitters, that combination MM: of skill, awareness and the nasty draconian part that got me through MM: those times are immediately recognized by those who have been there MM: themselves. [snip] MM: Unfortunately, most people have no idea what the real signs of MM: fighters/heavy hitters are. By in large they expect such people to act a MM: certain way. For those of us without a similarly flavourful background, what are the telltale signs you notice when you see other heavy hitters? What telltale signs do you possess that others may not pick up on? Being able to spot the wolves is an important step in finding your way out of the sheep pen. --jeff "I don't mind being someone else's karmic punishment." -Cael --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:45:02 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Belated comments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Things have been very busy (our DB Gathering is coming up on the 27th) and I've been meaning to comment on the question Pat posed recently about "delivery systems". I apoligize for not having his original post handy but to set the context reference this posted by someone else (I think): "I remember Guro Inosanto referring to a stick competition where he gave a thai boxer ½ an hour training before he went onto fight. He became the champion that day! Does that imply, I wonder, that it's easier to take the athlete and adapt him to other circumstances? Will someone who is training for real life situations (which can never be simulated properly) have the same ability to adapt?" It's always nice to have a term for things, and "delivery system" certainly is briefer and catchier than "being in shape and seasoned". If I may oversimplify in order to simplify making the point, the lesson drawn by some from Guro Inosanto's aforementioned story or others like it is that if your only goal is being able to fight, then the FMA is a bunch of unnecessary "dead pattern hooey". My take on it is this: First, if one is not temperamentally a fighter already it is entirely possible to train exclusively FMA as it is often taught in the USA for a long time and still suck when it comes to fighting. Second, it is possible to take a MMA type of fighter, or football player, or boxer, or thai boxer, and get him to a functional level where he can beat your basic amateur FMA practitioner in the circumstances described by Guro Inosanto's story (a FMA tournament) in fairly short order. What happens when we get to a street situation is less clear to me as will be discussed shortly. Third, the people who are IMO at the top levels of weaponry fighting do tend have a solid foundation in FMA (or other) hooey. For an obvious example, observe Top Dog in our first video series. This applies to most if not all other Dog Brothers as well. Speaking for myself, although I have worked on myself as a "delivery system" I would be nothing but for Guro Inosanto and my other teachers. If you put a jock with plenty of fighting-oriented contact experience against a desk jockey who trains in FMA for fun it is not surprising the that the athlete may do pretty well-- especially in the presence of tournament sticks and protective gear. IMHO it is also possible that as the nastiness of the weapons increases and the gear lessens or disappears, the athlete may or may not do so well if one assumes decent inherent fighting spirit on the part of the FMAer. In other words, the cultivated technical skill and the understandings of the weapon(s) becomes increasingly important as does experience in what it(they) can do. In my experience some MMAers would be quite formidable. For example Vladamir Matyushenko (world class heavyweight, went the distance with then champ Tito Ortiz on a week's notice for the UFC heavyweight championship) and I play sticks in a very friendly way from time to time. Vlady handles me like I handle my four year old son when we roll (I do better in stand-up sparring as long as he does not bring the heat) Sometimes he will warm up on me; he's quite the gentleman and does not crunch me. When we play sticks (no gear, Action Flex sticks) although he shows me that he would be quite a challenge in a DB fight I would not decline the fight. In other words, the technical skill of the weapons and my understandings due to my years in FMA hooey makes an important difference IMHO in the two areas. Furthermore, it needs to be noted that some of the MMA people I know of similar level tend to have an attitude of "Get the F*ck away from me with those F***ing sticks!" i.e. even with GREAT delivery systems they want none of it, even in play. Also to be considered is that MMA sport reflexes can also have contra-effective consequences. For example MMAers often like low-line takedowns. I had another situation with a former PRIDE competitor who when I was teaching disagreed with the high-line close that I was showing and sought to suggest that a single or double leg would work better. (In the context of the situation he was not being a butthole.) So we got out the Actionflex and tested. When it was done we both agreed that he would have had a permanently reduced IQ had the sticks been real. At the same time I learn from MMAers. Rico Chiapparelli (and Vlady and Frank Trigg) help me work on my understanding of clinch, and I draw upon what I have learned from Guro Inosanto and elsewhere too. In short, why posit it as either this or that? Why not train the technical skills and understandings (a.k.a. "dead pattern hooey") AND cultivate fitness and real time functionality (a.k.a. "delivery system")? In my understanding the Dog Brothers (and DBMA) have always been that. Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Sidney525@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:43:05 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Bob Orlando Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I got Bob Orlando's most recent DVD, and like his other products, they are simply great. We brought him out to Chicago a few years ago, and I think we really got a lot from him. I was able to see his instructor, Uncle Bill De Thouars a few months ago, and I thought Bob really portrays him accurately. Part of what I really like about what Bob does is to break things more down into principles, that we can all digest. I hope to go see him in Denver in the near future. Sid --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "doug tucker" To: Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:08:33 -0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Full contact no armour Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Perhaps the tone of my post was a bit harsh though" Maybe. Unfortunately this seems to be the source of many arguments as tone is often misinterpreted in emails. I agree though with much of what you say. However, I've reached the stage now in my own training where I'm really not concerned by what other groups are doing or claim they're doing, and equally not concerned sufficiently enough to feel the need to prove what I do to anyone else in order to satisfy other peoples curiosity or any need I might have to keep up with the Jones'. Not because I'm at a level that affords me this attitude - far from it. It's purely from a standpoint of being constantly disappointed and dismayed at the vast difference between what people say they do and what they actually do. For example. A friend and I went along to see the gathering of a group who were advertising a new full contact stick fighting format. We arrived late, paid the entrance fee and sat down ready to be impressed. Noticing a lack of pretty much anything going on, I asked a guy sitting next to me if he knew what the conditions were. He said he did and said no more. A man of few words. I asked if there was any kicking allowed. "No." I asked if there was any grappling allowed. "No." I asked if there was any sweeping allowed. "No." I asked if there was any thrusting allowed. "No." I asked if there was any aggressive use of the left hand allowed. "No." You get the picture? Apart from losing the will to live after that, I also lost interest in what others were doing. "No one is good enough to never get hit. It would seem to me that someone's going to be walking away with at least a broken hand unless the fighters immediately close every time or aren't seriously going at it. Then there's the risk of losing an eye to a thrust or getting killed if someone were to land a full power shot to the side of the head etc" This seems to miss the point on a few levels. Firstly, you can spar full power without the use of armour but there has to be some obvious conditions attached. We all have to work the next day and some of us rely on our hands to make a living. I have one student who's a musician and another who's a window cleaner. If you regularly spar the same guys, which this sort of training usually boils down to, why would you be looking to take his eye out or cause him serious damage. Not only is it going to ruin his day, but you're going to be a man down and in the long run this could also prove detrimental to your own training and progress. If you're looking for anything else beyond that i.e. full power, full contact, no armour, anything goes then you'd better be signing a waiver because you're effectively fighting Juego Todo. Milt, if you're happy with your own training methods and sparring why bother about what others say they do? If they say they spar full contact with Bolo's and no armour on a weekly basis, so what. There's always going to be these individuals and groups around, that's just the way it is. Trying to disprove what they say and do, in the end, serves as much use as a chocolate teapot. Happy training. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest