Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:52:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #237 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. re Belated comments (Patrick Davies) 2. Fighting Spirit (julian.gilmour@barclays.co.uk) 3. Recoginizing big dogs (Marc Macyoung) 4. RE: Dr. Ned's article... (Bobbe Edmonds) 5. Seminar Review: Cliff Stewart's Pentjak Silat Camp of the Masters Capsule: Almost too good (Todd Ellner) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:23:16 +0100 From: "Patrick Davies" To: "eskrima digest" Subject: [Eskrima] re Belated comments Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks Marc, I was using the thread as a thought session in order to be more clear on this subject. You have helped immensely. : ) aha! Old concepts dressed in new clothes? And that is the accusation that accompanies quite often the theme of the quote that I used. < In other words, the cultivated technical skill and the understandings of the weapon(s) becomes increasingly important as does experience in what it(they) can do.> do you think Marc, that during your own development and focusing in the DBMA journey that you over compensated on the fighting side to the extent that the overall development was compromised? I have students who compete in thai and while they are very good they don't seem to develop as fully as they concentrate on the ring requirements. < Furthermore, it needs to be noted that some of the MMA people I know of similar level tend to have an attitude of "Get the F*ck away from me with those F***ing sticks!" i.e. even with GREAT delivery systems they want none of it, even in play. Also to be considered is that MMA sport reflexes can also have contra-effective consequences. For example MMAers often like low-line takedowns. > But with the right training would they be easier to adapt to the situation? I think sometimes if you have someone who trains one thing so much that it would be hard to be able NOT to do it. Using the example you used of a shoot, if the ma is in an environment where shoots are exhausted daily, he may well not appreciate the potential of them not being the advised option in a street situation. Or, I wonder, he may appreciate that the shoot may not be the best action against someone with a knife, but simply cant contain himself from doing it OR stops himself from doing it causing hesitation and doubt which at that moment in time is the wrong thing to do! < Why not train the technical skills and understandings (a.k.a. "dead pattern hooey") AND cultivate fitness and real time functionality (a.k.a. "delivery system")?> well, imho, by creating something as undesirable you have a throng of people wanting to pay you for the latest fad. iPat --__--__-- Message: 2 From: julian.gilmour@barclays.co.uk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:02:36 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Fighting Spirit Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all In a recent post Crafty Dog mentioned certain people being "temperamentally a fighter" and "inherent fighting spirit on the part of the FMAer". Take a person 'inherently' without these attributes. Apart from the methods of indirectly cultivating these qualities such as - training a lot with good instructors and partners to develop it as confidence increases - hitting the sticks, pads etc with 'emotional content' as if they were real opponents intent on damage/death - having your wife/family/best friend killed or taken hostage by an evil crimelord/martial arts expert and training with intent for retribution ;) How could one potentially improve their mindset in this direction? Do they simply have to spend a lot of time in life-threatening situations with badasses and 'heavy-hitters' genuinely fighting for their lives? Thanks in advance Peace and respect to all on the list Julian Internet communications are not secure and therefore the Barclays Group does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Although the Barclays Group operates anti-virus programmes, it does not accept responsibility for any damage whatsoever that is caused by viruses being passed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Barclays Group. Replies to this email may be monitored by the Barclays Group for operational or business reasons. Barclays Bank PLC. Authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:28:11 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Recoginizing big dogs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > For those of us without a similarly flavourful background, what are the > telltale signs you notice when you see other heavy hitters? What telltale > signs do you possess that others may not pick up on? > Being able to spot the wolves is an important step in finding your way out > of the sheep pen. > --jeff "I don't mind being someone else's karmic punishment." -Cael Great googly moogly! You also want me explain international finance and economic interrelations in the modern world? YIKES! Simple, question...not a simple answer. Al Siebert in his book the Survivor Personality tells a very good story about as being a young recruit finding out that they were going to be trained by survivors from the 101st airborne who had suffered terrible casualty rates in Korea. The guys who had survived were considered the best of the best. As recruits they told themselves stories about how mean, ferocious and hard these men would be. Instead they found them to be entirely different in nature than what they expected. They were not crawl all over you, in your face instructors, in fact, quite the opposite. What they would say in case of a mistake -- with certainty -- was "if this had been combat, you'd be dead" That calm certainty was far more powerful than barking and drooling in the recruits face. What Siebert did notice however was the extordinarily high awareness these individuals had. It wasn't paranoia, but nothing occurred in their environment that they didn't immediately "zero in on" and identify. Even if it was nothing more than a quick flick of the eyes. That is one of the best ways to recognize someone who has survived a whole lot. Siebert also goes on to talk about commitment. Heavy hitters have an extra degree of commitment that is what has allowed them to survive what they have. In a very real sense is like an extra, invisible "weight" that these people have. Once you learn what it looks/feels like, you can immediately sense it. Basically, most people do not have this kind of internal commitment and it's presence speaks volumes. When you know what it looks like you can look into the eyes of someone and see the "beast" lurking in the background. What Siebert doesn't talk about however, and perhaps it is more germane to this particular topic is patience. They don't HAVE to move now...in fact, most of the time they are going to sit there and watch to get a fuller idea of what is going on. They will scope out the situation before they decide to do anything. These are just a few quick points. My major point though is that you go read Siebert's book and that will help direct you into a basic understanding of what you're asking about. Once the basic idea is there, specifics to heavy hitters, dangerous players and bad ass pieces of real estate will make much more sense --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Bobbe Edmonds" To: Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:26:52 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Dr. Ned's article... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: steven ledwith Subject: [Eskrima] Spanish influence >"Here is a link to an interesting article. http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html"< Mabuhay, Steven! Below is an excerpt of an posting I wrote in an argument with a Filipino about the same article. Just my dos centavos. Dr. Ned brings up some valid points. However, he freely admits that the only surviving terms are Spanish, not Filipino. I am not Filipino, and this make me curious as hell to know what the art was & what it was called. The Spanish went out of their way to destroy much of the Filipino culture. There is alot about Filipino history that is nothing more than guesswork at best. Don't take my word for this, however. Dr. Ned says the same thing. However, he also ignores this fact, and largely just lets fly with his own opinions, often without digging very deep. There are HUNDREDS of expert historians, and many documented accounts of the Philippines that debunk the good doctor. Understand the Filipino race. Where did it originate? The clue lies within the language of origin, and I'm NOT talking Tagalog here. But that also brings up an important point: What is the origin of Tagalog? "Taga-Illog", or "To cross the river". Where they were crossing FROM is your first clue. The language of that region, FROM THAT TIME PERIOD, is your second. I would like to address a couple of the more glaring errors in Dr. Ned's essay: >"Fact #9 The suggestion that kali is the root word of some words found in different Filipino languages and dialects is not based on linguistics, in fact a study on this claim is yet to be made."< This is because: #1 - The word is not "Filipino" per se, as we know it today. #2 - The word is from a time that predates the Spanish. Are you aware of the Laguna Copperplate Inscription? Nobody can read that today. If the Spanish quelled literacy in a nation that was previously strong in literacy, what else have they lost, never to recover? >"Important pre-Hispanic household words like diwata, Bathala, datu, ulipon are still understood by many and this same is also true with words associated with the warriors, like bangkaw, baraw, tameng. So what is supposed to be the ancient name for the Filipino martial art? Kali? If it is kali then, why don't we find this word in dictionaries of the different Filipino languages and dialects?"< And how many, exactly, of those dictionaries were written BEFORE the Spanish invasion? This is common sense, people. Separate the Filipino dialect from Spanish influence, the entire language. I bet it can't be done. Also, many words are commonly identical to the Maly-Indo language as well...Couldn't "Kali" have it's roots in THAT direction??!? >"In fact this particular word was just "re-introduced" years ago."< >From where??? Dr. Ned gives no authority, or names any sources in his accusations, just parroting of more assumptions he himself cannot disprove any more than they could BE proved! >"Kali is never a traditional name for the native martial art. If one goes to a secluded place in Cebu for example and ask those eskrima old-timers there if they know what is kali, the will probably say they don't know."< Wasn't he making a point about dialects earlier? "Pangamot" in Tagalog is reminiscent of "Medicine" or "Physician". "Kamote" also means sweet potato in another region. Are we REALLY going to have this discussion? Again, Dr. Ned ignores his own point, made earlier in the article, in favor of this one. >"And these people are supposed to know better."< Ah, this is pure assumption. Who said they should? Any town, village, in PI will claim lineage to Lapulapu, and that they have the true "style". Leave the Cebuanos out of this. >"Fact #12 The once Spanish colony of Venezuela in far away South America also have their own form of stick fighting. The Garrote Larense stick fighting art of Venezuela reminds one of eskrima. There must be a connection between these two martial arts somewhere and further research is needed."< They ripped it off from Kali, Eskrima, call it what you will. It has no traceable roots past ten years ago. Research has already been done & the style debunked "Dr." Ned should pick up a book once in awhile. ">Fact #13 It is baseless to say that eskrima or arnis are just phases of the natural evolution of kali, that is kali being the original form, eskrima and arnis the modern and diluted equivalents. Kali that we can see today don't differ from eskrima/arnis. Some say that kali is on blades while eskrima/arnis more on sticks implying that kali is more combative, realistic and original form while eskrima/arnis as sanitized intended for sports. But in places where the word kali is not the traditional term used, the eskrima/arnis also included the practice of the bladed weapons. In fact many of those who categorize their styles as kali were actually derived from escrima/arnis styles."< Eskrima & Arnis were the evolved style, post-hispanic era. It isn't baseless to say that, all we have is the post-hispanic version of things!! Dr. Ned offers no proof of the contrary, but to his defense, neither does history. However, it's dismissive to make assumptions like these with so few facts. >"Fact #14 There is no lack of good blacksmiths and is not the reason why many eskrima/arnis fighters use sticks now instead of real blades. Many good eskrimadors are not found in areas known for their machete making skills. Many panday or sword smiths do not know eskrima and it is never mentioned in the Philippine history that Philippines were running out of bolos."< They weren't running out of bolos, they were running out of blood. The Philippines weren't colonized, they were CONQUERED. Many styles have a moon or a star in the crest to symbolize the era when the art went underground, & was supposedly practiced by moonlight. The sticks were used for safety, and as such, have evolved into their own art. Now, I was not there, this is all supposition on my part from the studies, research & oral transmissions from my teachers, almost all of whom live in Indonesia or PI. However, unlike the Doctor, I am not unwilling to admit it. Now, we have a few witnesses: The Spanish were NOT alone in this region at these times, although historians often exclude this fact: To the south, the Portuguese & Dutch were jockeying for control of Malaysia & Indonesia, and had their eye of the Spanish-controlled regions to the north as well. The Dutch kept EXTREMELY CAREFUL accounts of what happened during their long tenure in Indonesia. The records of the East Indian Trading Company, in the record halls of Lyden, contain accurate records of everything that was occurring in the area, because a revolt in the PI affected trade with the PI. Couldn't have that. There is also mention of the 12 Datus (including the execution of one of them) in these records. The Spanish themselves kept a pretty detailed account of things, and anyone interested should check out these books: 1. Southeast Asia in the Age of Commerce. 2. An Introduction to Philippine History by Arcilla 3. Full Fathom Five - Wrecks of the Spanish Armada 4. Adventurous Armada 5. The Rise and Decline of the Spanish Empire 6. The Exploration of the Pacific - Beagelhole (Pigafetta interpretation) 7. Magellan's Voyage -- Pigafetta (Yale University Interpretation) 8. Conqueror of the Seas - Story of Magellan by Zweig (Pigafetta interpretation) 9. Barangay by Scott (This also has excerpts on Pigafetta) Several books by Scott should also be sought out by anyone who is interested in further study of Philippine History. A couple of great websites with good historical accuracy: http://www-atdp.berkeley.edu/9931/jvillafl/history.html http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/default.htm >"So basing on the aforementioned facts, we can only offer logical comments as to the possible origin of the contemporary Filipino Martial Arts (a bigger portion of which is the eskrima/arnis/estocada/kali). It is basically a product of Filipino creativity and no doubt whatsoever, it is very Filipin o. The bulk of its repertoire was developed during Spanish colonial times, and plausibly it got its inspiration from European fencing concepts and practices. It was greatly developed and refined (and the evolution still continues) only here in the islands of the Philippines. "< >"So basing on the aforementioned facts"< There are MANY other points Dr. Ned left out of his thesis, to come to these conclusions is dismissive. However, he ends it with: "no doubt whatsoever, it is very Filipino". Thanks for listening, everybody. Bobbe Edmonds "Do not think you are on the right road just because it is a well beaten path." -Unknown --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:07:36 -0700 From: Todd Ellner To: CC: Subject: [Eskrima] Seminar Review: Cliff Stewart's Pentjak Silat Camp of the Masters Capsule: Almost too good Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Everyone who has been in the martial arts scene for any length of time has been to events labeled "Gathering of the Masters" or "Best of the Best" or similar. They are usually opportunities for people to show off without actually teaching anything. The smiles are as fake as a used car salesman's (the mentality is pretty similar). Egos scrape against the doors and ceilings on the way in. The main goal is to have one's picture taken with the biggest name present and get a certificate. Lord knows I've spent enough time and money at them to get thoroughly cynical. Guru Stewart's event this past weekend had the same relation to that brand of time-killer as Thai pads do to Pad Thai. First off, there was the host. I first met Cliff Stewart in 1996 when I was testing for an apprentice instructorship in Bukti Negara. At the time Tiel and I were pretty sure that "Cliff" was a description, not his name. We were amazed that someone that imposing could disappear in the middle of room. Hell, Massad Ayoob can tell you a lot more about him and a lot better than I can - http://www.cliffstewart.com/bio.html His combative prowess aside what made this event work was the man personally. I have never met a warmer, more hospitable host. Everyone there was a guest. Every guest was treated as family. And people responded to that in kind. Lots of people talk about "brotherhood" in the martial arts and combatives. Most of the time it means "exclusive clique". Here it didn't, simple as that. Many of the instructors had been friends and colleagues for decades. The trust and comfort level that comes from such long associations made the event run more smoothly. At many seminars there is a certain amount of time spent getting to know and trust the person presenting the material, especially if it's unfamiliar. Can I believe what this guy says? Will his or her stuff work? Who the heck are they anyhow? This was absent here, so everyone got down to serious work quickly. Given the large number of presenters and limited time the event wouldn't have worked otherwise. The event started off Friday evening with a symposium where most of the instructors talked about their practice and the systems they would be presenting. It served, if you don't mind a couple nautical metaphors, to break the ice and to clear the decks. Again, with the heavy time constraints people had to become familiar with each other and devote the time on the training floor to training. Some of the traditions represented such as Bando and the African warrior systems which Kilinde Iyi teaches were obscure even by the standards of this eclectic group. It was very helpful to have a map of the territory beforehand. The next two days were all training all the time. Despite the excellent example of people like Guru Inosanto and others like him most people who give seminars are weak on how to teach effectively. One tends to get a lot of technique and a lot of talking with very little of real worth getting passed on. Or the instructor will overload the students with information either in the vain hope that some of it will stick or the secret one that none of it will. At Guru Stewart's camp this was not the case. Almost everyone took one or two things - a few techniques, a concept, a series of connected training exercises - and built on them as a vehicle for transmitting understanding. In addition, most of the participants were already working at a higher than average level and had significant experience with something like Capoeira, Eskrima, or Silat. It made the progressions easier to follow and allowed the presenters to spend less time going over old ground. Besides, you always learn a lot when the older men sit around and talk story. Things like the real origins of the Black Karate Federation (two of the three founding members were there in the room), what happened to the Sterlak practitioner from Donn Draeger's book, how Capoeira evolved in different places, and how a Nepalese knife ended up being a signature weapon of Burma's national fighting system. So who was there, and what did they cover? I won't bore you with a long recitation. Besides, I was too busy trying to keep up to take notes. But a few words should at least be interesting. Everyone knows I'm biased, so I'll leave out the Bukti Negara and Serak teachers (Frieda Doyle, Thomas Lomax, Stevan Plinck, Cliff Stewart). Apologies in advance for any omissions, mistakes and misspelling. FMA --- Graciella Casillas - Eskrima - Ms. Casillas has been at this an awfully long time, and the experience shows. In addition to some very cogent words on the real use of the live hand and others on the reality of cutting she stressed commonality of training by going through progressions with and against different weapons. Darrel Sarjeant - Sadiq Kali Silat - Working with Guru Sarjeant was kind of like an old Reese's Peanut Butter Cup ad. "There's Silat in my Kali!" "There's Kali in my Silat!" Many claim to integrate the two. What it usually means is they have added a little Silat technique to their FMA without going through the work of actually learning any significant amount of the system. Darrell isn't like that. He really does put them together in a way that makes sense. African and Brazilian MA ------------------------ Kilindi Iyi - various African marital arts - Kilindi was at a bit of a disadvantage. He was presenting something completely unfamiliar to most, something that comes with very different cultural underpinnings. He managed to get a lot of information and context across in a very short time and to get enough physical examples in there to give us an idea of how things are done. I was left with the very strong impression that in the warrior societies he talked most about MA isn't something you do. It's something you are. Dennis Newscome - Capoeira Angola - Mestre Newscome is an old and old-school Angoliero. That should tell you most of what you need to know - unpredictable, disarming, cunning and with a wicked sense of humor. Frankly, I was paddling hard just to keep my head above water but still learned a lot from the teaching progression he used. Other ----- Ron Chapel - Sub Level 4 Kenpo - Sifu Chapel didn't present until late on Sunday when everyone's butt was beginning to drag. He did more of a lecture than a hands-on workshop. If it weren't so scientific I would have said that what he was doing was magic. He talked and showed much about perception and the ways that physically hard-wired phenomena can be used to lead a person's brain and body around on a leash to confuse, to focus and to strengthen or weaken. He stressed time and again "The little things matter." Ron Susskind - Cobra style Bando - I'd heard of Bando before but never seen it or met a practitioner. It was very interesting to see this system even if there wasn't enough time to get a good grasp of it. The fact that there are different subsystems based on a person's physical makeup is something I hadn't encountered before. Bruno Cruicchi - Garotte Larense/Silat Sterlak - A lot of martial arts teachers stick "Professor" in front of their name not because they actually are professors or because they have a professorial air about them but for status. I've always thought it was kind of silly, especially when you see the real thing in action. Bruno Cruicchi is an actual professor, and it showed in the quality and organization of his presentations. Due to schedule slippage he had to combine two into one hour. For the first half hour he worked off of the first juru of Silat Sterlak trying to give an appreciation for the very direct and brutally efficient nature of this compact system. The second portion of the program was an introduction to one or two basic ideas from the Venezuelan stick/machete fighting method known as Garotte Larense. The footwork and angling were different enough from the Eskrima most were familiar with to be very interesting. The frequency of hand switching took some getting used to but makes a lot of sense. Silat ----- As I said, I'm already prejudiced when it comes to things in the Serak family. Suffice it to say that Gurus Doyle, Lomax, Plinck and Stewart did fine jobs from very different perspectives. Tony Felix - Pentjak Silat Wali Songo - The system that Guru Felix studies is very traditional and rigorous. For the first two years one only does ground work. In sessions on both days he moved from the fundamental ground positions to moving between them to specific applications to free play. Anyone who was there and who can't walk or sit this week will be able to say "It's all Guru Tony's fault!" Although it was strenuous the material was a joy to practice. Summary ------- This is one of the one or two best martial arts events I have been to. The quality of instruction was extraordinarily high. The genuine camaraderie made the whole thing work smoothly. We had the opportunity to see and interact with instructors who, if they don't have the recognition of more famous players, can hold their heads up in the most distinguished company. The material presented was useful, well-organized, and very well taught. The level of most of the students allowed the teachers to go quickly into fairly deep matters and pulled the rest of us up to a higher level than we normally enjoy. My only complaints are about time. An hour is just too short for this sort of material. And when schedules are that tight slippage shows. A few units got cancelled which was a real shame. Other than that I enjoyed the weekend immensely and highly recommend the Camp of the Masters to anyone who can be in Los Angeles next summer. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest