Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 03:01:50 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #247 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. fma instuctors in vietnam (J. Richard Metcalfe) 2. Hardcore (al sardinas) 3. Hard Core, and Heavy Hitters (Marc Macyoung) 4. Re: Hardcore (Mike Casto) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:51:56 -0700 From: "J. Richard Metcalfe" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] fma instuctors in vietnam Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello all; I travel to vietnam for business and stay for 6 months to a year at a time, if anyone on the list knows of any FMA schools or intructors especially in Ho Chi Minh province/city please let me know. Silat instructors also if you know of any. thanks. J. Richard Metcalfe --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "al sardinas" To: Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:28:24 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Hardcore Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Regarding hardcore, very good answers from all. At first I thought answers would be strictly of the physical nature but practically everyone mentioned that hardcore is an individual mental thing. I especially like what Mike Castro wrote about hardcore - "It means dedication to training toward perfection" Very well put. And Karol "Ungoy" Krauser raised the question "Hardcore is really in the mind of the participant isn't it.?" So in actuality, drawn from what was written, hardcore is meeting or exceeding one's limit no matter how insignificant it may appear to be to others. Thus it is possible for a student to receive hardcore training from a McDojo. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:26:30 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Hard Core, and Heavy Hitters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Eric Taimanglo wrote > On the subject of hardcore: Mr. MacYoung has talked about the reasons people walk onto the mat; spiritual development, competition/physical fitness, and self-protection skills. (I've probably botched the categories, my apologies, Marc.) Nope, you're close enough, although at the urgings of a fight director from SAFD I have added a fifth category, stage combat. Which as much as "hardcore" MAer's spurn the idea, movies, TV, stage and shows is what gets paying students in the door. And after seeing how much goes into it, I have to say that they work harder at it than most people I have met from so-called hardcore MA. >Anyway, it is a mastery or possession of all of these facets of the fighting arts that McDojos promise the consumer, which he says, is not possible. As a young man I used to believe that I could do it all. That both time and mastery were availible for all things.(Short version: I had the world by the tail). As an older, more mature man, I ascribe to the notion "If you ain't confused, you don't understand the problem." Things are not as simple as I believed them to be as a youth, the more I look the more I see depths and complexities in things that I once took for granted. Depths and complexities that are going to take a few decades to get a real handle on. In light of this can is it possible to master them all? Well I guess if you live for 500 years you might be able to say that you have mastered them all. But mastery of all of them in just 10, 15 or 20 years...I dun' think so. >No one system has it all. I have to agree. My sig line is from Dr. Barnes in the movie Volcano "I'm a scientist, certainity is a big word" In the same vien "having it all" covers a whole lot of territory. And a whoooooole lot of things can happen in that much area. That's why I am amused by MA marketing claims about how "Dr Boneacres miracle tonic cures all these diseases, regrows hair, invigorates the elderly and sweetens the breath" ...damn, giving this guy your money will do all that for you? Yeeeha! Wish I'd known that earlier, I wouldn't have wasted 35 years of my studying all those other things. What's that old advertising saw? "Sell the sizzle, not the steak" Well, sizzle is nice, but when it comes down to it, you can't eat the sizzle. Nor despite claims by Dr. Atkins can you live on steak alone. >One only has to point to the example of the female in the TaeBo commercials who said that the calisthenics gave her self defense skills. But McDojos, as much as >the hardcore population ridicules them, serve up their "customers" opportunites to develop attributes besides those needed for a pucker situation, and are quite >good at it. I also think that these overlap each other to a certain extent, Short story here, Peyton Quinn and I were drinking...errr...talking one night and he told me that he had been talking to the head of NAMPA/creator of cardio-karate. Peyton mentioned that the idea of people thinking that cardio-karate was good for self-defense was a dangerous misconception. The guy opened a file drawer and pulled out large folder of newspaper clippings of women who had "taeboed" themselves out of violence/criminal assault. My, my, my what a quandry, an experienced street fighter getting egg on his face because obviously the sports jocks who like claiming it does prepare you for "real" violence were right...I mean it's right there in the paper, so it had work right? Well, kinda, sorta, maybe. See if crime and violence only came in one flavor that would indeed be the case. However, the thing is that there are all kinds of continuums and sliding scales about violence, how it happens and who is involved. What it takes to stop a crackhead from getting froggy is totally different than what it will take to keep a hardcore gangbanger from making a run at you. And then there is also what it takes to stop an enemy soldier from sending you to your ancestors. Would cardio-karate work for self-defense, well obviously it can -- in very limited and specialized circumstances -- especially the kind of circumstances that these women found themselves in. Would it work against the kinds of nasty nasties that Peyton and I have faced? Uhhhhh no. BUT, and this is a massive but, those women's chances of running across, much less be in conflict with those level of predators, is pretty slim. Can it work for bitchslapping a crackhead? An aggressive panhandler? A drunken, grabby frat boy? You betcha. Would it save you against a serious player... no. You'd be dead before you had a chance to react. Success of a system, it seems is a matter of degrees, probabilities, circumstances and many other factors. Quite often though the argument about what is good for "Real" fighting/self-defense,from ANY of these competing MA/WSD/RBSD camps by and large revolves around a key point. They all ignore not this continuum per se, but the complexities that arise from it. Sure they pay lip service to it, then they go out and teach things like a neck break from behind, slashing an incoming punch with a knife, etc, ad naseum as "self-defense" (Or my all time favorite, teaching a smaller, slighter person to attempt to overwhelm a larger, stronger attacker in a head on manner, relying on "tapping into their inner rage" to carry the day). Well, gosh golly gee, what they are learning will work on some levels, but you get to the higher levels and that kind of stuff is going to get you into all kinds of trouble and in all kinds of ways. Not the least of which is if you try it on a real nasty, he's going to eat your liver -- because what makes for these "other" levels is a whole lot of other things than just physical moves and attitude. Hell, I've met women whose cardio training gave them the confidence to back down a crackhead. And good for them. What I have also seen however, (and it isn't just women) are people with some training who aggressively confronted someone who would have severly hurt them had the guy not looked over their shoulder and seen me giving him the hairy eyeball. And then, after the guy left, like a banti rooster, watching these people strut around thinking that they had intimidated the guy. Never realizing that it wasn't them, but rather the fact that it was not tactically sound for the guy to jump. Had loverboy gotten froggy, they would have gone down because he wouldn't attack according to their rules. In the same breath, I've seen all kinds of times where someone unleashes their killer kung fu commando moves on drunken Uncle Albert. Man, you can't do that... as the nasty complications that arose from those actions show. What can get really entertaining is watching someone who is trained in a "deadly fighting art" confront someone who just doesn't care and is being uncooperative -- but not enough so to justify stomping the guy. Ohhhhh whatcha gonna do now Sport? At this level is it not martial skills that you need, but people skills (especially conflict resolution) to keep it from escalating to where it does go phsyical and you drop all that "hardcore" training on Captain Uncooperative's head. That continuum, and what it takes to survive on the different levels, makes things all kinds of complicated. Not just for training, but application as well. It's a bear, but you just can't shoot or stab everyone who gets in your face. And if you are in a situation where you do need to shoot or stab someone, you'd better not try any of those really slick, cool moves you've been training in. (Keep to the fundamentals and apply them with GUSTO!) >. As you read this, young men and women are swearing into the Military. Some are joining for college money, a chance to attain a trade or skill, travel, etc. There >are very few soldiers I meet today who say they joined because they want to fight terrorism, because of 9/11. And there are very few who even attempt to fight >terrorism as part of an elite cadre such as the 75th Rangers or the Special Forces. Yet they all walked through the same portal of Initial Entry Training. I've met a >lot of martial hobbyists who were good in competition, nice people, but these are the norm, while the hardcore martial artists I met in parks and who I practice out >here with are few in number. As it is with "civilized society", so it is with the military. One road that is tread by different people with different goals. If I may comment on this? I hear all kinds of terms (like hardcore, warrior, warrior tradition, reality based, yada yada yada) bandied around in MA circles and the internet. What I very seldom hear used in conjection with these terms, however, are terms like duty, obligation, responsibility and -- most importantly -- service. Quite frankly I have not been in a "personal fight" since I was 20. That is to say someone came at me because of something I personally did to him, said or because of criminal intent. That having been said, both a majority of the violence I was involved with in my life and everything since 20 has been because it was my job to tell nasty people "No." I told them "No" not because of what I wanted or would gain, but that it was my job in service/protection of others. Short version: You ain't doing this Stud, not on my watch One of the biggest roaring arguments that Steve Plinck and I got into was over the fact that the "purpose of an elite is to serve." That someone is made a member of an elite unit, not for personal glory or pride, but rather because of the service they provide to the greater whole. Without this critical component you are just creating a pack of self-appointed, arrogant elitists who want the benefits of "rank" sans the responsibilities and costs. In this case people who consider themselves superior because they know this ultimate deadly fighting art...without ever having to step up to the line and really prove it. Sweet deal if you can get it. The reason that you meet so few "hardcore" people where you are, is that selfishness has been beaten out of them, by the training. The same training that instilled in them concepts like teamwork, duty, obligation and responsibilty. Because those who never understand those concepts are never inducted into "elite" units. Because in the "real world" those issues are far more important personal glory about how dangerous you are for knowing bigdickdo. As you have seen in a warzone, it isn't just about being tough. > The trouble arises when people confuse the pursuit of say, spiritual development, > with the development of self-protection, or point sparring with street fighting. A-bloody-men. Each have value, where they lose value is when you try to take it outside what it's for and say it is good for something else. >Or, in my case, some NCO's and officers confuse powerpoint presentations and creased, sharp uniforms with the dirty business that is combat. I think you will discover that this by and large comes back to the difference between management and leadership. There are far more managers than there are leaders. >Nuff said. 23 days and a wake up to the freedom bird in Kuwait!!!! ----SPC Eric Taimanglo, 1st Armored Division Whooup! Watch your six and come home safe Marc --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Hardcore Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:55:15 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I would say that, yes, it is possible for the training one receives at a McDojo to be "hardcore" for that person. Because "hardcore" is a personal thing. What's "hardcore" for me may be "creampuff" by another's standards. And there are also distinctions among the health, sport, and combative forms. There is "hardcore" health, "hardcore" sport, and "hardcore" combative - but, still, it's going to be a subjective qualification. Personally, when people that are commonly considered "hardcore" call me "hardcore", I take that as a hell of a compliment. But it's still a very subjective opinion. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "al sardinas" To: Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:28 AM Subject: [Eskrima] Hardcore > Regarding hardcore, very good answers from all. At first I thought answers > would be strictly of the physical nature but practically everyone mentioned > that hardcore is an individual mental thing. I especially like what Mike > Castro wrote about hardcore - "It means dedication to training toward > perfection" Very well put. And Karol "Ungoy" Krauser raised the question > "Hardcore is really in the mind of the participant isn't it.?" So in > actuality, drawn from what was written, hardcore is meeting or exceeding > one's limit no matter how insignificant it may appear to be to others. Thus > it is possible for a student to receive hardcore training from a McDojo. > > Respectfully, > Al Sardinas > Student of Garimot System of Arnis > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest