Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:01:52 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #248 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Heavy Hitters (finally) (Ollie Batts) 2. Re: Hard Core, and Heavy Hitters (steven ledwith) 3. Re: Heavy Hitters (finally) (Ken) 4. Re: Hardcore (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Hardcore (Milt Tinkoff) 6. Re: Hardcore (steven ledwith) 7. Re: Hardcore (Ray Terry) 8. Bob Orlando Seminar (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:07:48 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Heavy Hitters (finally) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc wrote: "Yes, he passed away from cancer about four years ago. "Three tours Vietnam PBR, machine gunner during Tet against a human wave, Detroit streetfighter, bodyguard, bouncer and a few other things." I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your friend Marc. I lost my Father to cancer too, nearly 11 years ago - there's a lot of it about! This discussion reminds me, by-the-way, of a - supposedly amusing - Army recruitment poster or T-shirt joke, which goes along the lines of: Join the Army; See the World; Visit exotic and interesting places; Get to meet strange and interesting people; And kill them! And, as you quite rightly presume, I never did that. Which, as you correctly point out again, makes me a "civilian", and quite clearly not a member of 'your club'. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you give the distinct impression that you see civilians as being somehow beneath you. Second-class citizens. Not worthy of engaging in friendly conversation, as we simply have no way of understanding how you feel. Do you also think that Psychiatrists need to go to war, or must have experienced insanity at some point in their lives in order to be able to understand how their clients feel about things? As for the young men sent to war, don't forget that it is usually 'civilian' politicians who first bluster, and then send those young men off to fight their wars in the first place? Yes, ok, Presidents and Prime Ministers have 'advisers', of course, but it is they who take the ultimate responsibility. So, as a non-military person, I don't get to debate with you Marc. Quite clearly I am at fault for asking questions, and for having a viewpoint. If we extent your logic and way of thinking further, the fact that I am not a paedophile either must also mean that I am excluded from having an opinion and, perhaps, valuable points of view on that subject too - for example? When you posted, quite casually, about 'gouging people's eyes out, and ripping off their ears, just to get their attention', I thought that this Digest, or Forum, could include some young people who might look up to the likes of you for experience, knowledge and, perhaps, to be some kind of role model to them. Whilst I realised that your comment was, in all probability, made slightly tongue-in-cheek, others may not have done so. I had hoped that by picking you up on that particular point you might have put things into some kind of perspective. Instead, you simply adopted a rather patronising, condescending and superior tone towards me. But that's ok. I understand! Going back to your friend and his three tours of duty in Vietnam: I was pleased to hear that his 200+ body-count was made up of people who were combatants. As was the case with Hein Severloh, at least he too could be confident that the people coming up Omaha Beach on 6 June 1944 sure as hell weren't there to sunbathe. Sadly, however, during wars and battles, things aren't always that clear-cut, and there is always much indiscriminate loss of life. In closing, I can only say that I apologise for quite obviously testing your patience *sigh*, and for my ignorance, insensitivity and effrontery. Pugil --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:45:18 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Hard Core, and Heavy Hitters To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net --- Marc Macyoung wrote: "Not the least of which is if you try it on a real nasty, he's going to eat your liver -- because what makes for these "other" levels is a whole lot of other things than just physical moves and attitude." Are you saying that we have to become predators to protect ourselves againts predators, Marc? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:54:55 -0700 From: Ken To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Heavy Hitters (finally) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'd say your tone in this response is condescending and sarcastic. I'd agree that anyone who has spent time in ANY military by successfully completing at least 1 tour (not getting thrown in the brig, Leavenworth, etc.) is of a different mindset than "civilians". As far as "looking down" at civilians as second class citizens, that's patently ridiculous. The things we have done are ostensibly on behalf of "citizens". Furthermore, we don't feel a need to answer to our actions. I will agree that some people would FORCE upon us their image of what we should be and their intention that we be some sort of role models (I realize you referred to martial artists, but it still applies in this thought). However, the fact of the matter is we don't have to fit a role model. And if there's a problem with kids hearing a bit of reality in relation to the subject, their parents should be locking them away in protected environments until the parents feel they are ready to handle the world, in which case they won't last long in that world. If there's a problem with Marc's or anyone else's frankness about fighting as it appears on this list, you should talk to Ray Terry about that since he seems to own the list. Otherwise, your opinion is noted, but I offer this response that your opinions are mired in quite a bit of self-indulgent BS, and a woefully misunderstood knowledge of what "martial" arts are really about. I for one appreciate Marc's input, as grim as it sounds at times. On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 10:07:48AM +0100, Ollie Batts wrote: > > > > > And, as you quite rightly presume, I never did that. Which, as you correctly > point out again, makes me a "civilian", and quite clearly not a member of > 'your club'. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you give the distinct impression > that you see civilians as being somehow beneath you. Second-class citizens. > Not worthy of engaging in friendly conversation, as we simply have no way of > understanding how you feel. Do you also think that Psychiatrists need to go > to war, or must have experienced insanity at some point in their lives in > order to be able to understand how their clients feel about things? As for > the young men sent to war, don't forget that it is usually 'civilian' > politicians who first bluster, and then send those young men off to fight > their wars in the first place? Yes, ok, Presidents and Prime Ministers have > 'advisers', of course, but it is they who take the ultimate responsibility. > > So, as a non-military person, I don't get to debate with you Marc. Quite > clearly I am at fault for asking questions, and for having a viewpoint. If > we extent your logic and way of thinking further, the fact that I am not a > paedophile either must also mean that I am excluded from having an opinion > and, perhaps, valuable points of view on that subject too - for example? > > When you posted, quite casually, about 'gouging people's eyes out, and > ripping off their ears, just to get their attention', I thought that this > Digest, or Forum, could include some young people who might look up to the > likes of you for experience, knowledge and, perhaps, to be some kind of role > model to them. Whilst I realised that your comment was, in all probability, > made slightly tongue-in-cheek, others may not have done so. I had hoped that > by picking you up on that particular point you might have put things into > some kind of perspective. Instead, you simply adopted a rather patronising, > condescending and superior tone towards me. But that's ok. I understand! > > Going back to your friend and his three tours of duty in Vietnam: I was > pleased to hear that his 200+ body-count was made up of people who were > combatants. As was the case with Hein Severloh, at least he too could be > confident that the people coming up Omaha Beach on 6 June 1944 sure as hell > weren't there to sunbathe. Sadly, however, during wars and battles, things > aren't always that clear-cut, and there is always much indiscriminate loss > of life. > > In closing, I can only say that I apologise for quite obviously testing your > patience *sigh*, and for my ignorance, insensitivity and effrontery. > > > Pugil > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima -- ============================================================================ As recently as 1972, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia said that the jury has an "...unreviewable and irreversible power... to acquit in disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial judge...." -- (US vs Dougherty, 473 F 2d 1113, 1139 (1972)) http://www.caught.net http://fija.org --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Hardcore To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The people that believe they are hardcore or are training hardcore are most likely just hardcore wannabes. The true hardcore person is the one that realizes that their training is never really sufficient and thus continues to raise the bar yet another notch. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Hardcore From: Milt Tinkoff Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:32:09 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >>>>> "Ray" == Ray Terry writes: Ray> The people that believe they are hardcore or are training hardcore Ray> are most likely just hardcore wannabes. The true hardcore person is Ray> the one that realizes that their training is never really sufficient Ray> and thus continues to raise the bar yet another notch. "Hardcore" is kind of a loaded term. That said, I'd say that someone who goes to a McDojo where you don't ever really work up a sweat, the majority of strikes and kicks are thrown at the air, any contact is minimal and light because the students don't want to get hit, and wearing a groin cup isn't necessary is definitely *not* training "hardcore." -milt --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 14:47:12 -0700 (PDT) From: steven ledwith Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Hardcore To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net --- Ray Terry wrote: > The people that believe they are hardcore or are > training hardcore are most > likely just hardcore wannabes. The true hardcore > person is the one that > realizes that their training is never really > sufficient and thus continues > to raise the bar yet another notch. > Because some of us still have to go to work tomorrow we can only raise the bar so high. Does that make us wannabes? I train pretty hard with real contact,but wear a mouthpiece and headgear does that make me a wannabe? I've been given concussions in real street fights and had the crap kicked out of me by a group of 6, does that make me one of the "hardcore wannabes" ? The fact is that me and my training partners train as hard and realisticly as we can, is our training sufficient Ray? Maybe, maybe not. But we also have to realize that the "bar" only has so many notches and that there are different degrees of "hardcore". I would say that say that if a person trains with full power striking, pushes themselves physically, trains in an "alive" format, and isn't affraid to prove it on the mat so to speak, is hardcore. But hey what is wrong with being a wannabe? People have to start somewhere right? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Hardcore To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Because some of us still have to go to work tomorrow > we can only raise the bar so high. Most everyone here is in that category. But that does not need to impact the height you raise your bar. It just means you need to be creative in your approach to training. Get out of the box. > Does that make us wannabes? Perhaps. If you think of yourself as hardcore, then most probably yes. > I train pretty hard with real contact,but wear a > mouthpiece and headgear does that make me a wannabe? Sounds like typical training for many/most. Nothing wrong with that. > I've been given concussions in real street fights and > had the crap kicked out of me by a group of 6, does > that make me one of the "hardcore wannabes" ? If you brag about it, then yes. > The fact is that me and my training partners train as hard and > realisticly as we can, is our training sufficient Ray? Most likely. As long as you -continue- to improve your skill and that of your partners. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] Bob Orlando Seminar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bob Orlando Seminar in New Jersey When: Saturday and Sunday, September 25-26, 2004 Contact: Sifu Robert Teodorczy (reddragonmaa@yahoo.com) Red Dragon Martial Arts Academy http://www.reddragonmaa.com 10 N.Arlington St. Manville, NJ 908-253-0022 Notice: Groin protection is mandatory! No one is allowed to participate without good groin protection. (Soft groin protection for male participants is NOT good groin protection.) --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest