Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:50:04 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #249 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Knife Fights at the DB Gathering (Marc Denny) 2. Gladiator vs. Troy (Bill McGrath) 3. Hard-hitters (still more!) (Ollie Batts) 4. RE: Knife Fights at the DB Gathering (Karen Pence) 5. Wannabees (Michael Koblic) 6. Re: Gladiator vs. Troy (abreton@juno.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:44:53 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Knife Fights at the DB Gathering Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: At the previous Gathering all the knife fights were 2x2. To call the results sloppy and behaviors unrealistic would be an understatement. Indeed, as best as I could tell, EVERY SINGLE FIGHTER got killed. So I put it to the guys on the DBMA Ass'n Forum for their thoughts as to how to do it better this coming Sunday. In search of additional thoughts and with their permission, I post the most of the thread here. Woof, Crafty Dog PS: For info on "The Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack" this coming Sunday go to www.dogbrothers.com for details ============== BEGIN >From the Invitation "At each Gathering there is a different focus. At this one again we will be encouraging people to fight 2 against 2 or 3 against 3 (or 2 against 3?) in the knife fighting. This was a bit of a disaster last time with all players repeatedly getting killed so we will try going about this a bit differently this time." ---------------------- I think it was a disaster only because we weren't all on the same page when it came to the "rules" of the knife fights. What are the options? A. You can think of the 1-2 minute knife fights as a bunch of much shorter fights. If you get killed, you acknowledge it, back off for a second or two, then start again. Or in a multiple man fight you have to run and touch the wall or drop and do ten push-ups or something before you can continue. B. Each fight is one fight, period. You get killed, the fight's over. Or if it's a multiple man fight, you're out. C. Same as B, but if you get killed, you can continue fighting as long as you can hold your breath or maybe you just get a couple of seconds for one last desperation attack as you're bleeding to death... IMO, B & C, while more realistic, don't offer people enough time to "enjoy" their knife fighting experience if they get killed right away, but I can live with that. Any other ideas? Then of course we can debate what constitutes a kill... In any case, I think it will seem less disastrous if the rules are made explicitly clear to everyone before we start. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Maybe the multiple opponent knife fights were a disaster because the outcome of a knife fight between four men is disasterous. IMHO I liked it the way we did it last Gathering. Jump in, figure out what works, get hit, watch your back, look for your partner, get hit, think on the run under attack, go go go. THE problem was already raised. If kills matter, then what is a kill? "I killed you." "No, I killed you first." "No, you didn't hit the artery, so I killed you first." I'm sure no one would say it, but I'd be thinking it. Besides rules require a judge. I WOULD like to see a couple of really good knife fighters do a one on one exhibition fight. ------------------------------------ Woof All, why not put ink or painting on the knife to see which is touched and or it is touched?? ------------------------------------- I tend to view the knife fighting much like option A, as a bunch of shorter fights. I think it should be on the fighter to be aware when they've been killed or have delivered a kill-shot. Also, I think people, i.e. bumrushers, need to be aware of the simultaneous kill. I liked how Guro Crafty pulled out a live blade and waved it near people's necks at the beginning of the last Gathering so people would have a little more awareness in regards to the fight. It's a warm-up, and I feel that too much emphasis on who killed whom, who delivered a greater quantity of kill shots, etc. makes it more like a knife competition. The multiple man fights were chaotic with repeated killings, but we could assume that it's another wave of attackers, kind of like a prison-riot, or the old video game Double Dragon. I like the multiple man fighting because it opens a bucket of tactics, and if people are focusing on doing push-ups or running to touch a wall it might take away from the tactical exercise. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Man, that Double Dragon reference sure brings back a lot of memories! In the context of a Gathering, I think bum-rushing is the typical response of a fighter who's been cut several times and feels like he has to do something to keep from looking like he "lost". OTOH I think it's a good idea to have a plan for dealing with the bum-rush, since it is a desperation tactic all too likely to be used in a real life-or-death knife fight. I know of course, since this just happened to me last week! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- The group here on Oahu tends to view the knife fighting in the same view as option A, a bunch of shorter fights. Dogzilla and I "kill" each other multiple times per fight. I like to vary my actions during the knife fights...some days, I play the knife "tag" game, where I'm targeting his hand or trying to "defang the snake". Other days, I go only for "kill shots" (neck, solid thrusts to torso) and couple that with the bum rush. I think it's good for Mike (considering he works in a federal prison...in the kitchen!) to be on the receiving end of the "shiv rush". He usually kills me, but not always before I'm able to do some serious damage. It keeps everyone involved well aware of the lethality of a real time, real life situation where the bad guy doesn't always play by your rules. However I'm playing the game though, I always back off to acknowledge a kill shot before continuing with the fight. In that respect, not only do the knife fights provide for a fun time because they're longer and you get the chance to try different tactics, it also serves as a decent warm up period before the stickfighting begins. I find it also helps me quell the ongoing mental chatter of stepping out with Dogzilla when he has a stick in his hand and "that look" in his eye. You know, sorta warm up to, "d**n, this is gonna hurt..." ------------- END So folks, any thoughts/comments/suggestions as to how to go about this in front of a few hundred people? I like the idea of working multiple players-- its a core foundational concept of the FMA-- but am not happy with the results so far. TIA, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:32:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill McGrath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Gladiator vs. Troy Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The movie “Troy” has been dropped from the theaters near me. I understand the movie has not done well in the U.S. overall (though overseas ticket sales have brought it out of the red). I saw Troy and thought it was the equal of Gladiator, a similar movie that did much better at the box office. Both movies had big budgets, big stars, grand scope and epic battles scenes. Each movie dealt with courage and honor. Each had its main character die at the end. I am writing a novel, in a simular genre as these two stories, and it worries me as a writer that I don’t understand why one movie did so much better than the other. Therefore, I would like to ask this question. If you saw both Troy and Gladiator and feel Gladiator was the superior movie, please tell me why. I need to understand. Regards, Bill McGrath __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:44:08 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Hard-hitters (still more!) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In response to one or two of Ken's various comments: >>"I'd say your tone in this response is condescending and sarcastic." Apologies for that, it was not intended. The written word(s), and ones often written in haste, fall far short of equalling any face-to-face conversation, discussion and debate. >>"As far as "looking down" at civilians as second class citizens, that's patently ridiculous." That's good to know. >>"I will agree that some people would FORCE upon us their image of what we should be and their intention that we be some sort of role models (I realize you referred to martial artists,..." No, I was referring to regular Human Beings. >>"If there's a problem with Marc's or anyone else's frankness about fighting as it appears on this list, you should talk to Ray Terry about that since he seems to own the list. Otherwise, your opinion is noted, but I offer this response that your opinions are mired in quite a bit of self-indulgent BS, and a woefully misunderstood knowledge of what "martial" arts are really about." As I see it There is no problem with having a conversation, an exchange of views, or healthy debate even. I certainly have had no reasons to believe that I'll ever need to trouble Ray Terry about someone else's post. As for being "self-indulgent", now surely that's something we can all simply sling at anyone else whose opinion happens to differ from ones own? You're right about my knowledge of the martial art, however. The more years I've spent studying, the more I've come to understand just how much more there out there to be learnt. (On the other hand, I am fully aware that the simpler you keep a street altercation the better.) That's one reason for joining forums, such as the 'Digest', so that I can learn from the likes of Marc, yourself and the many others here. >>"I for one appreciate Marc's input, as grim as it sounds at times." As I do too, but I already said that in the last paragraph. Pugil --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Karen Pence" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Knife Fights at the DB Gathering Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:26:59 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You may want to check out www.edgefighting.com I was a judge during this tournament, and we offered 2 knife divisions, one with bladed rules and the other the open division. In the open division we judged it as several instances, and it was who ever one the individual instance received the point, In your scenario, if the person who receives the killing blow acknowledges it, steps back then continues it will be more enjoyable for all involved. IN the bladed division, we had 3 30 second rounds per match, but very few of the rounds lasted longer then even 15 seconds, before a winning blow occurred, or a series of blows were landed (1 head shot or 2 shots to the body, or both arms were eliminated or both legs) Just my 2 cents... Karen Pence FMA student in Austin Texas -----Original Message----- From: Marc Denny [mailto:craftydog@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 11:45 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Knife Fights at the DB Gathering Woof All: At the previous Gathering all the knife fights were 2x2. To call the results sloppy and behaviors unrealistic would be an understatement. Indeed, as best as I could tell, EVERY SINGLE FIGHTER got killed. So I put it to the guys on the DBMA Ass'n Forum for their thoughts as to how to do it better this coming Sunday. In search of additional thoughts and with their permission, I post the most of the thread here. Woof, Crafty Dog PS: For info on "The Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack" this coming Sunday go to www.dogbrothers.com for details ============== BEGIN >From the Invitation "At each Gathering there is a different focus. At this one again we will be encouraging people to fight 2 against 2 or 3 against 3 (or 2 against 3?) in the knife fighting. This was a bit of a disaster last time with all players repeatedly getting killed so we will try going about this a bit differently this time." ---------------------- I think it was a disaster only because we weren't all on the same page when it came to the "rules" of the knife fights. What are the options? A. You can think of the 1-2 minute knife fights as a bunch of much shorter fights. If you get killed, you acknowledge it, back off for a second or two, then start again. Or in a multiple man fight you have to run and touch the wall or drop and do ten push-ups or something before you can continue. B. Each fight is one fight, period. You get killed, the fight's over. Or if it's a multiple man fight, you're out. C. Same as B, but if you get killed, you can continue fighting as long as you can hold your breath or maybe you just get a couple of seconds for one last desperation attack as you're bleeding to death... IMO, B & C, while more realistic, don't offer people enough time to "enjoy" their knife fighting experience if they get killed right away, but I can live with that. Any other ideas? Then of course we can debate what constitutes a kill... In any case, I think it will seem less disastrous if the rules are made explicitly clear to everyone before we start. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ---- Maybe the multiple opponent knife fights were a disaster because the outcome of a knife fight between four men is disasterous. IMHO I liked it the way we did it last Gathering. Jump in, figure out what works, get hit, watch your back, look for your partner, get hit, think on the run under attack, go go go. THE problem was already raised. If kills matter, then what is a kill? "I killed you." "No, I killed you first." "No, you didn't hit the artery, so I killed you first." I'm sure no one would say it, but I'd be thinking it. Besides rules require a judge. I WOULD like to see a couple of really good knife fighters do a one on one exhibition fight. ------------------------------------ Woof All, why not put ink or painting on the knife to see which is touched and or it is touched?? ------------------------------------- I tend to view the knife fighting much like option A, as a bunch of shorter fights. I think it should be on the fighter to be aware when they've been killed or have delivered a kill-shot. Also, I think people, i.e. bumrushers, need to be aware of the simultaneous kill. I liked how Guro Crafty pulled out a live blade and waved it near people's necks at the beginning of the last Gathering so people would have a little more awareness in regards to the fight. It's a warm-up, and I feel that too much emphasis on who killed whom, who delivered a greater quantity of kill shots, etc. makes it more like a knife competition. The multiple man fights were chaotic with repeated killings, but we could assume that it's another wave of attackers, kind of like a prison-riot, or the old video game Double Dragon. I like the multiple man fighting because it opens a bucket of tactics, and if people are focusing on doing push-ups or running to touch a wall it might take away from the tactical exercise. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- ----- Man, that Double Dragon reference sure brings back a lot of memories! In the context of a Gathering, I think bum-rushing is the typical response of a fighter who's been cut several times and feels like he has to do something to keep from looking like he "lost". OTOH I think it's a good idea to have a plan for dealing with the bum-rush, since it is a desperation tactic all too likely to be used in a real life-or-death knife fight. I know of course, since this just happened to me last week! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ---- The group here on Oahu tends to view the knife fighting in the same view as option A, a bunch of shorter fights. Dogzilla and I "kill" each other multiple times per fight. I like to vary my actions during the knife fights...some days, I play the knife "tag" game, where I'm targeting his hand or trying to "defang the snake". Other days, I go only for "kill shots" (neck, solid thrusts to torso) and couple that with the bum rush. I think it's good for Mike (considering he works in a federal prison...in the kitchen!) to be on the receiving end of the "shiv rush". He usually kills me, but not always before I'm able to do some serious damage. It keeps everyone involved well aware of the lethality of a real time, real life situation where the bad guy doesn't always play by your rules. However I'm playing the game though, I always back off to acknowledge a kill shot before continuing with the fight. In that respect, not only do the knife fights provide for a fun time because they're longer and you get the chance to try different tactics, it also serves as a decent warm up period before the stickfighting begins. I find it also helps me quell the ongoing mental chatter of stepping out with Dogzilla when he has a stick in his hand and "that look" in his eye. You know, sorta warm up to, "d**n, this is gonna hurt..." ------------- END So folks, any thoughts/comments/suggestions as to how to go about this in front of a few hundred people? I like the idea of working multiple players-- its a core foundational concept of the FMA-- but am not happy with the results so far. TIA, Crafty Dog _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Cc: "Christine" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:50:19 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Wannabees Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi! I am Michael and I am a Wannabee. Wannabee musician, physician, polyglot, marksman, golfer and last but not least a really bad ass hard core fighter. Unfortunately only some of the above puts food on the table. Which brings up a number of issues: 1) Amateurs and Professionals. There are those on this digest whose primary (or secondary or tertiary) income comes from MA, whether it is teaching, publication, protection services etc.. It is therefore only proper that those should be held to a higher standard of proficiency or hard-coreness. Then there are those for whom MA is not the life's be all and end all, yet like doing it because they like hitting others, geting hit by others or just want to know how to save their ass in the unlikely event of a confrontation. I never understood the logic of getting injured and disabled in training if the main purpose of training is to avoid getting injured or disabled in a fight. And please note that I distinguish between pain and disability, as others have done here already. Pain is good and makes one learn more quickly. However, as I would not expect necessarily to win a tennis match with the No. 1032 professional woman player in the world, I do not expect a positive outcome fighting with a professional. There will be always somebody there who can kick my ass and (I hope!) somebody who can receive kicking from me. 2) Social utility. Simply put, I find a 250 yard drive to have a greater social utility than a killer right cross. Ideally, one would like to have both, but because of the social utility factor one tends to work more on the former than on the latter. At least in summer. Such as we have here...There is a cost to doing anything in terms of time, effort or money, and in the later years, health. It is a matter of allocating resources where they will bring the best returns. 3) Learning by proxy. Being a wannabee and not having "been there" one has no other option but to listen respectfully to those who have and learn from their experience without judging them. Actually most learning is done that way in every other field. Yet we need not suspend our own intelligence. Comparing several sources is also a standard practice in other fields and has been useful for me. I also think one should ask questions. I have never met a true expert who was unwilling to explain. The caveat of course being that the greatest fool can ask more questions than the wisest man can answer... 4) Eye gouging. Is it really that easy? Kelly McCann says that it is actually quite difficult, due to the protective spasm of the muscles around the eye. One can slow or stop the heart that way though. Anybody prepared to admit to a direct experience and share? Difficult sort of thing to try on cadavers. They do not seem to have the same reflexes, on account of being dead... Enough, Michael Koblic Campbell River, BC --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "abreton@juno.com" Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:00:05 GMT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Gladiator vs. Troy Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Tuhon, I'd have to say, if I thought about it, I liked Gladiator better. I appreciated Troy, for a variety of reasons that included having read the book, having heard interviews on the history channel with some of the fight scene directors, etc. In terms of popularity, there may be several reasons: One was the acting. Although Troy had good actors, I think Russel Crowe was understated in his performance, and that fit the movie genre better. There may be also something that the heros of Troy (the actors) seemed so young. I think Troy was somewhat hampered by the book. In other words, they had to force fit the screenplay into a well known story. Gladiator used the setting and the names and very little else, so they had more freedom. Creative freedom by itself doesn't make or break a movie, though. I think that people could relate to the basic story of Gladiator better. it is basically an American "rags to riches" story with a few twists: One, it's really a "riches-to-rags-to-riches" story. Two, the "riches" are in terms of winning and loyalty, not wealth (it's along the lines of Cinncinatus). Three, it adds the element of the overpowering government that's basically good (the "good senator" whose goal is protecting the people), but run by a corrupt person (who eventually, despite his evil nature, gets his commupance). I also think we really do get the sense - through acting and story -that Russell Crowe's character is truly at risk to not accomplish what he has set out to do. The Troy story - of passions ignited by a warrior's pride (the first line of the Illiad) and the "theft" of a woman (pardon the chauvinistic bent for just a second) don't resonate with us. If a wife goes off with another man, we think it's a bad thing that she wasn't upfront about a relationship ending, but we we don't think of it as stolen property and an aggregious slap in the face by the other man. Whereas the Greek story was chauvinistic in ways we can't relate to. We have a lot of divorce in this country and I just don't think we see why they're all pissed off. About the passions arisen by the warrior's pride: I think, for example, we admire athletes who play despite injuries and soldiers who sacrifice themselves even if they don't have a chance of survival, we don't admire the athlete who is childish and who wears his egocentrism on his sleeve (or hers, but the examples I'm thinking of are men). I assume this is the sword book. I would say one could argue that all stories have some element of allegory in them, however small. I think a story has to resonate with a person's life on some level - at best, with universal human condition, but at the least with what people of the time are feeling. There's a book called "Great Books", a (true) story of a film critic who goes back to Columbia university to re-take all this required reading courses. He has an interesting chapter on the Iliad - how his first reactions were that he could not relate to the book, but as he re-read it, he saw why it was/is considered the basis for western literature. Andy -- Bill McGrath wrote: The movie “Troy” has been dropped from the theaters near me. I understand the movie has not done well in the U.S. overall (though overseas ticket sales have brought it out of the red). I saw Troy and thought it was the equal of Gladiator, a similar movie that did much better at the box office. Both movies had big budgets, big stars, grand scope and epic battles scenes. Each movie dealt with courage and honor. Each had its main character die at the end. I am writing a novel, in a simular genre as these two stories, and it worries me as a writer that I don’t understand why one movie did so much better than the other. Therefore, I would like to ask this question. If you saw both Troy and Gladiator and feel Gladiator was the superior movie, please tell me why. I need to understand. Regards, Bill McGrath __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest