Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:01:52 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #280 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. re: 90% of fights go to the ground .... uh huh (Bakbakan@aol.com) 2. RE: RE: Kali Influence on 'The Matrix' (steve kohn) 3. RE: 90% of fights go to the ground .... uh huh (steve kohn) 4. fights going to the ground (gordon walker) 5. RE: RE: Counter against Gwan Dao (Sonny Padilla) 6. 90% (Patrick Davies) 7. RE:fights going to the ground (Young Forest) 8. 90% of fights... well... we don't know. (Phil Elmore) 9. Kenpo Eskrima Link (a4one6) 10. Re: re: 90% of fights go to the ground .... uh huh (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Bakbakan@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:23:43 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re: 90% of fights go to the ground .... uh huh Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I heard that this number was taken from law enforcement statistics and that the percentile was based on the restraining of criminals. Anybody else hear this? John --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "steve kohn" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: Kali Influence on 'The Matrix' Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:59:06 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net And no one is more impressed with Chad than Chad. This I know from experience. He does however have undeniable skills. I believe he was one of Inosanto's top guys at one point in the 90s. Might still be.   -Steve Kohn >From: "Mike aka Shugendo" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Kali Influence on 'The Matrix' >Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:51:52 +0000 > >Keanu's stunt-double was Chad Stahelski and instructor and trainer >at the Inosanto Academy.  Chad has an impressive list of movies >under his belt as well as excellent martial arts credentials. > >Michael A. Krivka >Training Director, Martial Arts Koncepts >http://www.martialartskoncepts.com >Phone: 301/404-2571 >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list,  1900 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to ‘Dig Yourself Out of Debt’ from MSN Money. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "steve kohn" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] 90% of fights go to the ground .... uh huh Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:13:53 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ive seen a lot of street fights and there is no way the number is that high. i think that magic number was a result of Rorian Gracie's clever marketing skills in the early nineties.  If BJJ didnt prove to be as effective as it did, i think that more people would have questioned that "statistic". -Steve Kohn >From: gints@att.net >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima Digest) >Subject: [Eskrima] 90% of fights go to the ground .... uh huh >Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:04:13 +0000 > >Here's a link with a discussion on fighting on the ground: > >http://www.edatkd.com/fighting_myths.htm > >While I always doubted the high number, I never had anything to back my gut instinct.    My core style, Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, has deep roots in CHA3 Kenpo, which is still considered Kajukenbo.    The Arts (Grab/Rotation/Punch Combination/Knife/Club) include a number of ground techniques (standing+kneeling arm and body locks, kicks to body, etc.) but stop completely before full ground grappling and seated/lying submissions.     I've always wondered about the reason for this, given that at least one of the Kajukenbo founders, Prof. Joe Holck, was an accomplished Jujitsu stylist. > >I always thought that this absence was a statement of a wise principle:  REALLY, don't get caught up on the ground. This is really obvious in any multiple-man fight, but less so in a matted, sported fighting environment featuring two equally-weighted contestants and a referee.    Has anyone ever heard their teachers talk about this, in particular, Sijo Emperado's words on the topic? > >Thanks for any words, > >Gints Klimanis >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list,  1900 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:32:38 -0400 (EDT) From: gordon walker To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] fights going to the ground Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, The system, for lack of a better term, I train in has a strong ground component to it. So my opinion is biased, shoot me. I agree that a lot of fights will go to the ground. Most scraps Ive seen at drinking parties have a ground component to them, heehee. The ones that dont, are often fought by hockey players, who will jersey you and proceed to pummel you through your jacket until they get a clear shot at your groin, for lack of a better term. At that point you will go to the ground and ....well I dont know about you but fetal position is where Ive found myself after just such a blow. Being a fairly proficient purveyor of takedowns, I sometimes find that the takedowns dont work, or are reversed if executed improperly. In that case, you are going to the ground. Of course the guy taking you down can knock you out on the way down with a vicious savate/karate/tkd/muay thai/soccer/jkd kick but in the happy event that your still awake when you hit the ground... My logic would say that you better be able to fight from there if you want to get back up. I wish I had the cash to train in all the styles that cover all the ranges, but then I would be seeing everything as a disconnected mess. Regards, Gordon --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Sonny Padilla" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: Counter against Gwan Dao Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:45:11 -0600 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Andy, Fraile is just like a back cut and upon contact with the opponents weapon you re-direct it away from you and counter strike. Sonny Padilla Kali Ilustrisimo >From: ABreton@apshealthcare.com >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: Counter against Gwan Dao >Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:13:49 -0400 > >Hi, > >Could you describe that technique a little more? > >Andy > >-----Original Message----- >From: Sonny Padilla [mailto:sonnypadilla@hotmail.com] >Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 4:21 AM >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: RE: [Eskrima] RE: Counter against Gwan Dao > > >Hello, >In our system we use what we call a Fraile technique which is basically a >deflecting technique and counter strike. It can be use against longer >weapons like a bo baseball bat or hockey stick. > >Sonny Padilla >Kali Ilustrisimo > > > >From: "WEE Shin Hoe" > >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >To: > >Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Counter against Gwan Dao > >Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:48:57 +0800 > > > >Hi Guys, > > > >Just out of curiosity, how do you handle horizontal and diagonally > >upward attacks to your torso from a Gwan Dao (Heavy Chinese broadsword > >with 4-ft handle) using a stick?...:-) > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >S. H, WEE > >E-mail: Shinhoe@pc.jaring.my > >=========================================== > >_______________________________________________ > >Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > >Standard disclaimers apply > >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > >_________________________________________________________________ >Add photos to your messages with MSN Premium. Get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=htt >p://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > >This electronic message is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) >named above and may contain legally privileged and/or confidential >information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you are >notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is >strictly prohibited. If you received this message in error, please >immediately notify the sender by telephone and delete the original message. >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:43:18 +0100 From: "Patrick Davies" To: "eskrima digest" Subject: [Eskrima] 90% Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Message: 8 I'm not sure where the number of 90% relative to fights going to the ground originated, .... Steve While I wouldn't get hung up on numbers it's not an accurate figure but served its purpose in the 80'/90's in dragging the martial arts community - specifically in my experience the JKD community - to the groundwork aspects of the arts. I seem to associate - maybe wrongly - the claim to Sifu Hartsell with whom I was exposed a lot to thanks to Rick Young in Edinburgh in the late 80's and our groundwork was definitely introduced to us by him and I recall him telling stories about the Gracies well before many had heard of them. I think you have to be careful with the quote and not get too caught up in it. There were many conflict situations where I would not want to go to the floor but when you see 2 committed fighters going for it they, whether singularly or both, invariably go to the ground at some point. That's in the chaos of a streetfight, but in an environment when someone is engaging in law enforcement or stewarding a crowd, their reason to commit and purpose changes the mix. As a doorman I could easily decide a course of action that would eliminate the ground side of things at times. This is as you claim in law enforcement. But in a non expected fight between two people who simply react to certain stimuli's then there is a very high expectancy that someone will go to ground. With that in mind the statement serves a good reminder to those seeking a self defence training method to include a ground fighting area to their repertoire. Of course youthful over exuberance as you detailed in your account with the rookie may see people do things that are not sensible but that's part of the learning curve. Look at many mma forums and you will see loads of people describing fight encounters where they shoot in to leg tackles, take the back and choke out! While they get away with it, many on this forum may be a little bit more inclined to be aware of the risk of weaponry and may not choose a course of action so described. As an engineer I have to risk assess each action on a job. We highlight the risk by numerical values and then engineer that risk to an industry acceptable level. The 90% should just be seen in that light and we should 'engineer' our skills to reduce the risk to an acceptable level, which is why most of us are here in the first place! ; ) iPat --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Young Forest" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:21:28 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE:fights going to the ground Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >I'm not sure where the number of 90% relative to fights going to the ground >originated, but at this point it seems to have assumed a life of it's own. >I've seen that statistic quoted in a wide variety of places by a similarly >wide variety of MA practitioners. If we want to view it as some sort of formal statistic, then no, the number doesn't (cough) stand. However, if we want to use that as a short hand for saying "a large number of fights go to the ground" then certainly I don't have a problem with that. Even in a fight where both participants are trying exceedingly hard to maintain a longer range, the gap is almost guaranteed to close. Watching a TKD tournament is a good example - two guys drop onto their front foot after a kick, and end up pretty much chest-to-chest, waiting for the ref to back them up (or risk getting kicked if they step back). Take two people flailing away at each other with no concept of range, and typically it'll end up in the clinch, and from there, to the ground. The download section of Bullshido shows plenty of examples. Badger Siling Labuyo Arnis _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:44:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Phil Elmore To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] 90% of fights... well... we don't know. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A fight is, by definition, not predictable. All physical conflict includes a random element. we can no more say that "90% of fights go to the ground" than we can say the opposite with any certainty. Best to prepare for all possible scenarios and then hope you don't need *any* of that preparation. Phil www.themartialist.com -------------- - Phil Elmore --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:45:32 -0700 (PDT) From: a4one6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kenpo Eskrima Link Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings, I have read from an interview with Ben Largusa (of Villabrille Kali) that when he met Ed Parker that Mr. Parker said so you do double sticks. Mr. Largusa said we have much more than that and shown him their empty hands. It didn't state how long they trained together however. There seems to be many similariites in the high level of Kenpo and Eskrima in the empty hands. Daniel Siazon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re: 90% of fights go to the ground .... uh huh To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I heard that this number was taken from law enforcement statistics and that > the percentile was based on the restraining of criminals. Anybody else hear > this? Yes. That is apparently the source for the 90% figure. Given that LEOs want the 'opponent' in a felony prone position I guess the other ~10% ended up with the perp getting away in some fashion. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest