Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 03:01:52 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #309 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Message: 2 (bphillips211@sprintpcs.com) 2. RE: Dim Mak in a domestic dispute.... (Bobbe Edmonds) 3. RE: re Western Historical European Swordsmanship Angles (1@msfencing.org) 4. FW: Knife Fighting and Dim Mak (Clint Cayson) 5. re re Western Historical European Swordsmanship Angles (John Montes) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:07:24 +0000 (GMT) From: bphillips211@sprintpcs.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Message: 2 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > In Historical European Swordsmanship, which is my background, there are > primarily 8 angles of attack taught with the cutting weapons. > (Some of the ancient masters left off the last two angles which are Vertical > cuts). > > I'd be interested in hearing from you how these angles and their targets > compare with the angles of attack taught by the various styles of Eskrima, > Arnis, and Kali. The angles you describe are very similar to largo mano styles. Some largo styles use the plus sign (+) arrangement, some use the times sign (x) arrangement and some use the + and x together. Looks like yours uses the latter. Usually there will be a straight thrust angle to the point the lines in the + and/or the x meet, i.e. the center. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com>> Ray has it just right for Largo. Lastra Arnis's Cinco Teros are.. 1. Right shoulder to left hip 2. Left hip to Right shoulder 3. Right hip to left shoulder 4. Left shoulder to right hip 5. Straight thrust (dot the X). Our #12 is a downard vertical cut... the upward vertical cuts and the horizontal side to side cuts are not in the cinco teros or the doce teros for us (they are other places in the curriculum, but not emphasized like the 5s or 12s). I have played with the ARMA peoples and their eight star felt very comfy.. specially since it was a two hander, you didn't have to "flip" your only edge before your backswing (that false edge was cool). Also the notion of having a complex killing surface like a traditional broadsword was neat (imagine... a steel bar capable of being grasped with a sharped tip for thrusting and 3 punyos arranged at the other end. That half-swording stuff is neat! Brian -------------------- This message was sent from a PCS Phone from Sprint. Get a free PCS Mail account! Sign up via the Web Browser on your Sprint Phone or at http://www.sprintpcs.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Bobbe Edmonds" To: Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:23:02 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Dim Mak in a domestic dispute.... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Clint. Ah yes, the elusive Dim Mak. The sun source of debate, mysticism and martial arts mythos. And even if it's not, that was a nice bit of alliteration there, seldom seen on the list. No charge. There are two critical elements you must examine to understand what you are asking: The nature of pressure point fighting (so-called "Dim Mak") and the nature of facing a knife. I have trained Kyusho Jitsu under Jim Logue and Taika Oyata, and pressure points are taught within the first few months, to everybody. Sound a little weird, huh? What happened to all this "I only show the secret knockout techniques to students who train with me for 20 years" kind of thing? Well, as Taika puts it, the points on the body are really no big deal. You don't even need a teacher to show you them, any bonehead with a younger brother and a copy of Gray's anatomy could find them in under a day. However, GETTING to them, while your opponent is actively trying to keep you off him is quite the different story. That's where the real art lies, the ability to pass your opponent's defenses and set him up for YOUR technique, Dim Mak, Kali, Silat, whatever. In comparison, the scissor-attack limb destruction in Kali known as gunting is an awesome technique, but just try to pull it off on an experienced fighter who is actively trying to kick your ass. It takes skill and ability at entries, blocks, parries, timing, range, etc, all the while countering HIS attacks as well. So, in light of everything you have to have in place to pull it off, the gunting is no big deal. The same could be said about Dim Mak. Knife technique is a WAY different story. The only thing more hotly debated on this (and several other forums) is the term "Kali". Which everyone knows means "Chocolate". This is an important area that is seldom addressed. The knife has its own unique theory of use, its own language. Wielding it competently isn't a casual skill, it takes years to achieve anything resembling mastery. There are no hard & fast rules for knife play, you must take into consideration so many different variables that it would be impossible to categorize them minimally. If you leave the concept of "Style" out for a moment, you will find a large portion of blade craft is ubiquitous. It has no real home other than itself, and therefore can lend itself to any style of technique. Due to the nebulous nature of knife fighting, there are also many abstract theories & motions that have no real category other than "dirty tricks & sneaky moves". Many people get caught up in the aspects of style in the martial arts, what system has the best moves, the most complete repertoire, hundreds of forms, etc. This is a mistake when addressing the knife, you should instead examine the weapon itself. What does it do? Unlike the stick, the blade is at once powerful without the use of muscles, and lethal without the backing of a martial art. It only has to touch you to do damage, A child could kill with it in seconds, by accident. You must approach this area of training with utter seriousness, and develop it to a high degree. You don't have to necessarily be strong to use a knife, the knife has all the power. It only has to touch you to do damage. All the knifer really provides is a weapon delivery system and it can come in at varied speeds, with erratic motions and awkward angles. But there is one often neglected point about all this: Dim Mak works SOME of the time, on SOME of the people, and usually not to any great degree. A knife will work EVERY TIME, on EVERY ONE, unless your opponent is fighting in chainmail. The area of practical knife skills are sorely neglected in many martial arts, and for whatever reason, many instructors have an insurmountable aversion to learning and teaching it. I think this stems largely from the fact that knife skills can’t be as easily classified or categorized as empty hand styles. I mean, you can see the logic behind a Wing Chun fighter’s philosophy of “We fight close, because others are uncomfortable with that range”, or the Aikido “Blend with your attacker’s motion & he will be defenseless” Jiu Jitsu is easily identifiable as the brutal older brother of Judo and Aikido. Even simplistic kick and punch arts like Karate or Taekwondo have an immediately identifiable value as far as they go. But why is the knife so avoided, or often as not, approached so unrealistically? If you examine the end result of many of the aforementioned arts, you will see a recurring pattern of “block – strike – kick – grapple – subdue”. Maybe not in that exact order, but many of the elements are always present. Although serious injury or death is not impossible, it is rarely, if ever, the chief aim. In fact, restraint and control are always touted when training traditional arts, particularly the Japanese arts. This is where the knife truly separates itself, for the pattern here is “draw – kill” or at least “draw – maim”. Such a stark contrast holds little interest for someone who has dedicated his life to a twelve-step martial arts program, especially one with a boatload of ethics tied behind it. It is cold and harsh, with an unforgiving attitude in combat and very little (if any) moralistic code behind it. It is, however, truth in it’s purest sense: People can die easily, especially if they are unprepared for reality. I believe truth often carries with it the inherent necessity for change. The most common expression when real change enforces itself is “Why didn’t anyone warn us?” Truly, they did not hear. Or, hearing, they chose not to listen. Hmmnn, seems I got a little carried away there. But, I hope it answered your question! Peace, love and soul, Baboy --__--__-- Message: 3 From: <1@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] re Western Historical European Swordsmanship Angles Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:28:59 -0500 Organization: 1@msfencing.org Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray, John, and Brian, Thank you for sharing with me your styles' angles of attack. >Can you give me the historical reference >for this 8 Strikes pattern please? >regards,John Chow This eight angle strike pattern (occasionally a few masters omit one or both of the vertical strikes, over and under) is pretty much the standard in the vast majority of historical European fencing manuscripts written by the masters from the 1300s - 1800s. The pattern has been used for Two-Handed Sword, Longsword, Short Sword, Backsword, Victorian Broadsword, Classical Single Stick, and even Sabre. Below I listed just a few old manuscripts in which you can find this pattern specifically taught. It appears to have been so standard that knowledge of it is assumed in many other manuscripts. There is also a famous ancient European sword drill called the "Moulinet" in which the fencer flowed repetitively through these angles in the order of 1 through 6 (omitting 7 & 8) in order to gain strength and flexibility. When done properly one describes with their sword a figure 8 laid on it's side (also known as the symbol for infinity). There are too many old European manuscripts which contain this 8 strike pattern for me to list all of them without quickly boring members of this list. (However, I will be glad to send them off-list to anyone who requests them.) So I have only listed a few of the oldest extant manuscripts which contain this pattern. Below I have re-listed the eight angles/strike along with a few of the masters who taught them and their names for them. I also quickly posted a few of their diagrams on my website for you to view if you like: http://www.msfencing.org/angles.html THE STRIKES / ANGLES 1. OBLIQUE DOWNWARD STRIKE (High to Low attack cutting the opponent from his left shoulder down to his right hip.) ITALIAN: Fiore de' Liberi (1410): "sqalembrato" (angled from above) GERMAN: Hans Talhoffer (1443): "Oberhau"/"Oberhieb" (cut from overhead) 2. OBLIQUE DOWNWARD STRIKE (High to Low attack cutting the opponent from his right shoulder down to his left hip.) ITALIAN: Fiore de' Liberi (1410) "sqalembrato" (angled from above) GERMAN: Hans Talhoffer (1443): "Oberhau"/"Oberhieb" (cut from overhead) 3. OBLIQUE UPWARD STRIKE (Low to High attack cutting the opponent from his left hip up to his right shoulder.) ITALIAN: Fiore de' Liberi (1410) "ridoppio" (angled cut from below) GERMAN: Hans Talhoffer (1443): "unterhau"/"unterhieb" (cut from below) 4 OBLIQUE UPWARD STRIKE (Low to High attack cutting the opponent from his right hip up to his left shoulder.) ITALIAN: Fiore de' Liberi (1410) "ridoppio" (angled cut from below) GERMAN: Hans Talhoffer (1443): "unterhau"/"unterhieb" (cut from below) 5 HORIZONTAL STRIKE (Horizontal cut from left hip to right hip) ITALIAN: Fiore de' Liberi (1410) "tondo"/"traversi" (from the side) GERMAN: Hans Talhoffer (1443): "mittelhau" (horizontal cut) 6 HORIZONTAL STRIKE (Horizontal cut from right hip to left hip) ITALIAN: Fiore de' Liberi (1410) "tondo"/"traversi" (from the side) GERMAN: Hans Talhoffer (1443): "mittelhau" (horizontal cut) 7 DOWNWARD VERTICAL STRIKE (Vertical cut strait down at head) ITALIAN: Vadi (1482) / Marozzo (1500s): "Fendente" GERMAN: Hans Talhoffer (1443): "Oberhau"/"Oberhieb" (cut from overhead) 8 UPWARD VERTICAL STRIKE Vertical Strike (Vertical cut strait up at crotch, Inner Thigh, Hands, Arms, chin) ITALIAN: Vadi (1482): "montante" (cut from below) SOURCES: FLOS DUELLATORIUM ("Flower of Battle"), Fiore de' Liberi, 1410, Italy. Leading master of the medieval Bolognese school of fighting, primary source today for Italian long-sword. Studied under German masters and developed his own style. Treatise also includes dagger fighting & wrestling. At least three different versions survive. DE ARTE GLADIATORIA DIMICANDI ("About the Gladiatorial Art of Fighting"), Filippo Vadi (Fillipe Vadi) -1482-87 (Italy) Padua. On long-sword / great-sword, dagger, spear, and wrestling. A master from the town of Pisa who served noblemen and was master at Urbino. His treatise is in 2 parts, one text and one mainly pictures with explaining lines (not all very understandable). Vadi teaches fencing is a science, not an art and offers something of the ethics of a Master at the time and that a Master only needs teach to knights and noblemen, since they have the role of protecting widows and orphans and weak people, etc. The weapons covered are mostly great-sword/long-sword, dagger (including unarmed defense against the dagger), and short pike. For the sword he writes of cuts and the thrust plus footwork, specific techniques. The guards he uses often have the same names of the guards of Fiore de Liberi, but interestingly the position for the same name not always identical. Obviously many guard names passed from various schools and masters with modifications in name and/or position. HANS TALHOFFER'S FECHTBUCK ("Hans Talhoffer's Fencing Book") Hans Talhoffer. German fechtbuch images with text captions existing in different editions from 1443, 1449, and 1467. One of the more widely known but much less detailed fighting treatises. Covers longsword & other weapons, includes some material on wrestling. OPERA NOVA ("New Work by Achille Marozzo of Bologna, Master General of the Art of Arms"), Achille Marozzo (Italy) - (Early 1500s) Modena. One of the first to focus on use of the thrust over the cut, considered by many an "early rapier" manual despite his use of a clearly cutting and thrusting blade. Considered of the more significant masters. Modern Italian edition recently published. Blessings, Rez Johnson "Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore." THE FENCING MASTER by Arturo Perez Rez Johnson, M d'A Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms (Mississippi Fencing Academy) President: United States Traditional Fencing Association Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA) Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA) Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980 Modern Sport Fencing Coach 1980 - 2002 Mississippi Academy of Arms P.O. Box 955 Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955 E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org USTFA Website: http://traditionalfencing.org --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:10:47 -0400 From: "Clint Cayson" To: Subject: [Eskrima] FW: Knife Fighting and Dim Mak Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Mark, My assumption was probably "pressure point fighting" because the instructor/master was attacking the vulnerable and easy to reach spots. So, the case if both fighters are of the same expertise but with different styles of martial arts then, the advantage goes to the knife fighter? Or this could be just hypothetical theorem? Funny thought when some of the people watching the demo, "what if that fighter quickly spring back his lead hand and slashed/sliced the arm that is out of that Dim Mak instructor (just a thought)?" I also know that the Sayoc Fighting System which has the finger touch methods (Thanks to Rafael Kayanan for the info) developed over the years and much more effective than of the opposite. My best guess would be that the better fighter depends on how his or her abilities to defend himself or herself in situations. What if the person is a lady and the attacker or would be attacker have sharp pointer object? Would it be different scenario? Thanks. Clint [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image001.gif] --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:11:13 -0700 (PDT) From: John Montes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re re Western Historical European Swordsmanship Angles Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey, I've got an idea! Maybe we could call the thrusts "strikes" and the strikes "strike-strikes"!!! :) Nobody threw me a peanut, ~John-John --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest