Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 03:01:50 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #366 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Head-butting and dain bramage (B Katz) 2. Re: Re: Head butts (Steve Kohn) 3. headbutts (GioSEAMA@aol.com) 4. Medical consequencies of headbutts (Michael Koblic) 5. Re: Headbutts (Bill Lowery) 6. 9 Headbutts Part Two (Marc Denny) 7. Re: Head-butting and dain bramage (Ray Terry) 8. Re: 9 Headbutts Part Two (Roger Tinkoff) 9. Re: Head-butting and drain bamage (Andrew Maddox) 10. Re: Foot-Trapping? (Felipe Jocano) 11. Re: Head-butting and drain bamage (Ray Terry) 12. The *JOY* of headbutting (Nat Nickele) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 16:00:35 -0700 (PDT) From: B Katz To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Head-butting and dain bramage Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Being of hard Irish head and small American brain, I have on more than one occasion delivered a "Glasgow Kiss". I have damn near knocked myself cold doing it too. Forehead to forehead, is at best, a losing proposition. Nose, cheek bones, mouth, and even the side of the jaw are, in my opinion, (hey, I've done this more than once, how bright can I be?) the way to go. Another method that I have used is almost a vertical hop, driving the top of my dome into bad guy's jaw from beneath. Worked ok, but we ended up on the floor when he grabbed me. I have found that clenching your teeth tightly together seems to help you from knocking yourself out as well. I don't have any scientific basis for this, just empirical evidence. Any of the corpsmen in the audience have any reason for this? _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 16:09:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Head butts To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In my classes with Guro Ron Balicki, he taught me to look to the left or right when delivering a head butt so as not to break my nose on the guy's head if he ducks. Best, Steve Kohn Todd Ellner wrote: Rez writes: >I read somewhere that most self-defense experts these days recommend not >using head buts, because you might actually knock your own self out in the >process. Since I have never attempted one in practice or in a real situation >I have no clue to the truth of this. Have any of you successfully used head >buts in self defense situations? Ever knocked yourself out? Oddly enough, most of the good practical types I know speak very highly of the "Glasgow Kiss". I've used it once. It worked just fine, and I didn't knock myself out. Some of our students have reported back to us and say that the head butt has worked like a charm. One cut her scalp but didn't notice until later. One well known martial arts type said in a seminar that he knocked himself out and lost a bunch of teeth from doing a head butt. But he grabbed the other guy's head and slammed his own face down onto the top of it. Oops. The key, as several have said, is that you shouldn't be able to see what you're going to hit. The top of the head works. The frontal bone, just below the hair line (for those of you with regular heads of hair) - where you'd have antlers if you had antlers, is also excellent. The face below the eyebrows and the side of the head are the primary targets. Aaron writes: >As for the headbutt, it doesn't work well if you are taller than the person >you are trying to execute it on. Also, when you reach up to pull them into >the TOP of your head, don't grab them around the base of their neck and try >to pull them down -- it won't work unless you can just completely out-muscle >them. You can, however, pull them down fairly easy by placing your hands >around the top quarter of the back of their head and pulling down. If you're taller it's only going to work well if you bend your legs. Of course, then you'll have the force of your legs shooting your head up into his nose. The nose isn't going to enjoy that very much... I've also found that the Thai boxing plumb (plum?) is a good way to grab someone for this, especially if you are used to that hold from doing knees. It also means that we and our students don't have to learn another position/hold. That's a result of the rest of our curriculum, though. Your mileage may vary. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: GioSEAMA@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 19:42:17 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] headbutts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The original bare knuckle arts in thailand were called the art of nine weapons--with the head symbolizing strategy as well as the headbutt. Burma continues to use the nine weapons including the headbutt freely in their lethwei competition. The headbutt was used into other parts of the body as well to steer the opponent or the opponents eyes off of you as you made another move. VGiordano --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 16:52:56 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Medical consequencies of headbutts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This has been a useful thread. I am always on the lookout for a weapon useful to a short fat person with short arms andd always have thought that headbutts and knees fill the bill nicely (i am less confident about elbows, but that's just me). In addition to what has already been said about the headbutt I have also obseved that if you are a much shorter person than the one you are trying to butt, you may have a difficulty, unless you secure the neck or head first (various trials on the "Bob" :-)). I have seen the recipients of headbutts and the results seemed pretty devastating. None of these were administered by "martial artists" in the sense of the word understood by this group. Some were administered with a preceding hold of the victims lapels, but I understand some of the exponents have perfected a method of a flying headbutt (as in on a soccer field). As for the person who delivers the headbutt, some of the risks have already been mentioned here, but I feel I should mention two more: 1) Retinal detachment and consequent blindness 2) Cervical nerve entrapment There is an interesting reference to conditioning for headbutts in the book "72 Consummate Arts Secrets of the Shaolin Temple". I am not sure one should try this at home... Mike Koblic, Campbell River, BC --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 01:18:39 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Headbutts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Geoff Thompson (british MA, author and once upon a time doorman) Quote: "Anywhere above the eyebrows to anywhere below the eyebrows" Unquote The cranium is designed to protect the brain; the facial (relatively thin) bones are there to make us acceptable to other monkey like lifeforms :-) When one meets the other, there is rarely a happy outcome! Bill --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 02:29:32 +0200 (GMT+02:00) From: Marc Denny To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] 9 Headbutts Part Two Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: One of the nine is the one yáll are talking about here. A different one can be seen in "Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack" (maybe on "Attacking Blocks" as well- I forget) wherein Dogzilla connects with one of the best headbutts I´ve ever seen recorded. Unfortunately it was on Big Erv who was virtually indestructible. It is the fight wherein Erv is seen ignoring substantial stick shotS to his unprotected head without batting an eye or breathing hard. yip, Crafty -- __--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:31:42 +0200 (GMT+02:00) From: Marc Denny To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] 9 Headbutts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: IIRC there are 9 different headbutts in Bando. yip from Barcelona! Crafty Dog -- __--__-- --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Head-butting and dain bramage To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 17:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I have found that clenching your teeth tightly > together seems to help you from knocking yourself out > as well. I don't have any scientific basis for this, > just empirical evidence. True. And recommended in any interpersonal encouter. Fewer broken jaws. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 17:52:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Roger Tinkoff Subject: Re: [Eskrima] 9 Headbutts Part Two To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I guess this is a Gathering-specific question, but how do you decide when and how hard to take a shot an opponent's unprotected head? When faced with this choice at my last Gathering, I decided on a light tap. It was my opponent's first Gathering, and I guess I was afraid that going any harder would make it difficult to "be friends at the end of the day". Rog --- Marc Denny wrote: > Woof All: > > One of the nine is the one yáll are talking about > here. A different one can > be seen in "Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack" > (maybe on "Attacking Blocks" > as well- I forget) wherein Dogzilla connects with > one of the best headbutts > I´ve ever seen recorded. Unfortunately it was on > Big Erv who was virtually > indestructible. It is the fight wherein Erv is seen > ignoring substantial > stick shotS to his unprotected head without batting > an eye or breathing hard. > > yip, > Crafty > > -- __--__-- > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:31:42 +0200 (GMT+02:00) > From: Marc Denny > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] 9 Headbutts > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Woof All: > > IIRC there are 9 different headbutts in Bando. > > yip from Barcelona! > Crafty Dog > > -- __--__-- > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 21:11:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Maddox To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Head-butting and drain bamage Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Something that hasn't been mentioned, AFAICT, in this thread, is the multiple-opponent headbutt. That is, you're dealing with two not-so-pleasant people. Or more. If you can get control of one's head & neck for a second or two, you may have a good chance of smashing one's head into another's. Just a thought, maybe something to think about the next time you're "geared up" and doing rough-contact drills. Happy, uh, what - Tuesday? yes, I've been working too much recently. ND -- Andrew Maddox, madsox squiggle radix point net Nobody likes sunburn slappers --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:13:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Foot-Trapping? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, You might try looking at wing chun videos, although the methodology there is kind of different. Bot --- Alex 'Twist' Bohusch wrote: > Hello, > I was wondering if you knew any books or videos > about foot-trapping ? - > Since the Filipino and Indonesian martial arts are > the only ones where > I've seen foot-traps I thought you might be able to > help me. > > Thanks, > Alex > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Head-butting and drain bamage To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 19:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Something that hasn't been mentioned, AFAICT, in this thread, is the > multiple-opponent headbutt. > > That is, you're dealing with two not-so-pleasant people. Or more. If you > can get control of one's head & neck for a second or two, you may have a > good chance of smashing one's head into another's. Worked well for Moe Howard... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 19:21:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Nat Nickele To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The *JOY* of headbutting Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey all, Finally, a subject I know something about!!! I have 7 years soccer experience, 12 years MA experience, and 26 years CLB (cheap little bastard) experience. A few words about headbutting: -First of all, I view this as a desparate, messy, risky, but highly effective technique. Don't expect to headbutt someone and feel great after the fact. My advice is not intended to be the be-all and end-all of how to headbutt. Everything I'm about to say comes from my actual experience. -It matters where you hit and how, just as much as with what part of the head. Aim for the nose, eyes, cheekbones, jawhinge, ear, directly behind the ear, back center of the head, brainstem, and spine. -In general, use the "four corners" of your head. That is, hairline-ish up and outside of the eyebrow out (ie towards ear); NOT the center of the forehead. Use the back "corners" of your head approximately straight back from the front corners where the back of the ear and 2/3rds up the back of your head converge. It is a VERY BAD IDEA to headbutt with the back "brainstem" area of your head. I find that using the top of my head generally hurts my neck quite a bit and makes me see a flash of light upon impact. Practice juggling a soccer ball with your head to find which parts of your head hurt you the least. -God did not make everyone's head equal when it comes to headbutting. The shape of your head somewhat dictates how a shockwave travels through your head. I have had several people earnestly try to headbutt me and injure themselves in the process. Headbutting may not be for you. Don't knock yourself out. -If one hit is good, reapeated hits are more gooder. :) My general headbutting experience is when the fight distance has closed to standing or ground grappling. I usually tie up their arms and repeatedly hammer them with headbutts. Several times that has been enough to end the fight. Every time it has been enough to scare my apponent. On one particular desparate occasion (ie, scared and fighting for my life against a large individual who had just *subdued* several of my friends), I ended up wiggling behind him, grabbing him by the face, and repeatedly headbutting him until he lost consciousness. -Don't expect to win any beauty contests if you use this technique alot. I am often asked about the "horn buds" on my forehead by the kids I work with. Mostly it is from playing soccer, but some of it is from high speed skull to skull interactions. (not to mention the drooling from the braindamage j/k) Wow! This ended up being alot longer than I intended. If any of you all have anything else to add/criticise/praise, feel free -- I will probably just headbutt you. Drooling from the all braindamage, -Nat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest