Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:55:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #391 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. US combat team, combat smell test and the combat thingie (Felipe Jocano) 2. Re: Combat??? (Emanuel Hart) 3. How many were killed - who knows? (Peter Gow) 4. COMBAT SMELL TEST AND HOME ATTACKS (Peter Gow) 5. Dog fighting (Leabo) 6. woodytx (rob mulligan) 7. Re: Jimmy Tacosa (Kes41355@aol.com) 8. Re: How many were killed - who knows? (Ray Terry) 9. NY Daily News 10-26-04 (rob mulligan) 10. Re: Dog fighting (Arndt Mallepree) 11. Re: Dog fighting (H R) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:07:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: [Eskrima] US combat team, combat smell test and the combat thingie To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I tracked down this post from Mike Casto (hope you don't mind my using this as the take-off for my own post). This thread on combat (with the asides on tactical this-and-that ;-)) is very interesting. Just to be sure, though, I went to Mr. Webster and found these: combat (n): 1. a fight; a struggle to resist, overthrow or comquer; a contest by force; an engagement; an armed battle, as the combat of armies; 2. struggle; strife 3. a duel; a formal contest at arms between two persons (a): in military use, of and for combat. Interesting. We've been engaged in a struggle ;-) of opinions as to what is or is not combat or combative in nature in what we do as martial artists. Come to think of it, most everyone's opinion is right to some degree. The arts we practice are combative in nature. We train in the use of force; we train in armed struggle; some of the methods we use are for duels and some are for one against many. I suppose that the differences come in the intention with which we practice our arts of combat. Do we really do this for sport? for fun? for self-protection? or for combat as in the adjective above? In what sense are we using the term combat for that matter? Not that I'm engaging in tactical pedantry here ;-) but this discussion pretty much revolves around the sense in which the term combat is being used. You have the general definition of combat - and in that light, the arts we do are combative. But there's that specific sense (see the adjective) and then that narrows the field somewhat. Consider this: I practice arnis - I train to hit someone and defend against being hit by someone. I practice combat in that general sense. But if I train in arnis to kill someone...that's something else. Especially if I train to do so as a member of the armed forces. Now we have the adjective. Of course that's not the only thing you can do with it as a soldier but anyway, I'm just trying to make the distinction here. (correct me if I'm wrong here - isn't that the main purpose of military martial arts? to kill or at least neutralize the enemy? Input and corrections from anyone in the services or ex-service or heck, anyone who knows more than me most definitely welcome) Thinking about the sense in which we use the term combat made me look again at Mike's post. Is it possible that the term was actually being applied to what is now called sanshou? And that to Mike et al's audience, what they were seeing was combat in that sense? Just hypothesizing, but there's a cultural context involved in the use of the term combat, judging from the content. Sanshou or combat as contrasted to taolu or forms....I could see why they got the moniker the US Combat Team... Here's something else for contrast.... Here in the Philippines you'll occasionally find a karate school that advertises itself as Combat Karate. I once had a conversation with a gentleman from a school of shorin-ryu karate that used the name combat karate for what they did. I asked him about it and he said that in that sense, their techniques were practiced full contact, hence combat. Even our own style of arnis uses the term combat for a set of techniques. I'm referring to the unarmed disarms against the stick which Mang Ben labeled combat judo. Having never really asked him about it, I can only surmise that when applied full bore, these techniques are supposed to break something in the opponent's body. Combat again... Why the need for adding the term combat to what we do? Perhaps to make the distinction clear between that and the sport versions...or for fun or for health. Adding the term combat brings in a certain mystique to the practices involved. Of course, whether what you learn actually stands the test of combat (you survive more or less intact) is another matter entirely. Speaking as an observer here of American pop culture, there seems to be a fascination with the whole idea of combat. Medical metaphors use combat as the central image in the fight against disease; the fight against hunger; advertisements use the idea if not the actual word combat for nearly everything from jeans to ice cream makers (that link made me smile). And for you 80's guys, remember The Clash? Their album Combat Rock? nice title ;-) I'm not passing judgment on anyone, it's just a personal observation based on what I see from what we receive here of your media. BTW, I've never been a combatant; never seen combat; by God's grace have not yet had to use my art in combat (and I hope it stays that way!). The closest I got to being a soldier was CMT (Citizen's Military Training) and that was 22 years ago! Just making tactical use of the combat dictionary :-) Bot --- Mike Casto wrote: > Well, as the guy who wrote the post you're referring > to, let me say 2 > things - A) I personally agree with what you said. > B) I didn't pick the > phrase "US Combat Team" (I'm not sure who did, but > that's how we were > referred to). Consequently, my balls, personally, > don't feel "busted" ;-) > > The CMA community there were interested in seeing > application of martial > arts, not just forms. None of us who were there > could have touched any of > the CMAists when it came to forms. They were > incredible. But they had little > to no understanding of how to apply what was in > their forms. So, they were > interested in seeing martial artists who *do* > understand and can show > "combative" applications for the movements. Like I > said, I didn't pick the > name. In fact, the organizer of the trip only had 3 > weeks notice. My > instructor and I only had 2 weeks notice. On > September 14, I got home from a > long weekend trip. My instructor called and said, > "Do you have a valid > passport?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Good. We're > going to China." I said, > "When?" He said, "We leave on September 27." And the > whole trip was kind of > lilke that - hurry up and wait - and it was all > outside the control of > pretty much everyone from the US. While, overall, it > was an incredible > trip - and who could turn down and all-expenses-paid > trip? - we were pretty > much herded around like a bunch of sheep about 80% > of the time we were > there. And when we weren't herded, we were watched > pretty closely. > > Anyway, if I find out who picked the name, "US > Combat Team" I'll be sure to > pass on your "ball busting" :-) > > Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Emanuel Hart Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:31:58 +0200 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Combat??? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have not read all the posts covering this thread but I have read a few and would like to add some change (.02) to it. First I would like to say that I agree that this term is over used and in some cases abused. I have read some post that stress the gun as something that has a lot to do with the definition of combat. I agree that weaponry is a major aspect within the context of combat, however I don't think it is the defining factor. Any warrior or soldier would use the most recent technology available to get the job done. The question is; if the latest and greatest is not available and you are left with just your hands, does it qualify? --- Oxford Dictionary Combat - (Engage in) battle or contest (single -, duel); oppose, strive against; Combat fatigue - mental disorder due to stress in wartime combat. Combatant - (Person) that fights. ---- I have a very good friend Mr. Roger C. Carpenter that is currently in Iraq. Back in March of 2000 sent me a patch from a Karate school in Kosovo when he was there. Below is some text that he sent along with it; < The word "warrior" has many meanings as in "soldier" or one who is or has been in war. This karate emblem is in respect for "Gus" and his colleagues who were the ultimate warriors on March 20, 1999. Left behind to face an armed invasion without weapons these brave souls paid with their lives in Podujevo, Kosovo. Their attitude and spirit was something to revere and truly admire. Words alone would not do these fine people justice. I give you this emblem to wear and honor those "Warriors". Wear it proudly. May their legacy of the warrior spirit live on through you so that they will not have died in vain. > IMHO, if someone is truly trying to destroy you or people in your care, regardless of what you hold in your hands, the training you have done, along with luck, will be the determining factor. Now if that engagement qualifies as combat, I think it will depend on the over all context of that engagement. It is truly a shame that there are people out there that conduct training that will not serve anyone in a combative context and yet at the same time use words like "Combat" as a tool to attract students. To all those on the wall; THANK YOU may your training serve you well. Regards, Emanuel Hart Inayan Masirib Guro www.inayaneskrima.com hart@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Systems International ------- Emanuel Hart Inayan Masirib Guro www.inayaneskrima.com hart@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Systems International --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:09:16 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] How many were killed - who knows? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray, As far as special ops go the only troops that to the best of my knowledge, that had a price on their heads of $10,000AUS by the Viet Cong were the SASR. Also it was well documented that the Viet Cong would use grappling hooks under the cover of night to retrieve their dead, so that the allied troops never exactly knew how many were killed. Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:14:14 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] COMBAT SMELL TEST AND HOME ATTACKS Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear All, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE OTHER TWO GUYS, THAT WERE WITH THE GUY THAT ATTACKED YOU, AT THE TIME YOU WERE IN FEAR OF YOUR LIFE AND FORCED TO DEFEND YOURSELF - IT ALL HAPPENED SO FAST I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED! ;-) I'm sure there are a few LEOs out there that have heard this before. Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:36:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Leabo To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Dog fighting Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This mornimg while doing my daily walk to the train to go to work. I had the pleasure of turning the corner and being about 50 feet from a "Big" stray Pitbull. I wish I could say different but I nearly shit my pants. He was sniffing and pissing and had not picked up on me yet so I immedietly started crossing the busy intersection (New Hyde Pard Road) while pulling out my folder (Falcon CRKT). As soon as I started crossing he picked up on me and came after me. Although I almost got hit by a car I made it across. The dog stopped in the shoulder of the street and began barking, he was staring at me looking as if he was deciding if he would cross the street after me. I kept glancing back but avoided eye contact while walking slowly. Although my heart was racing and a million things were going thru my mind I decided if he attacked me I would give him my left arm and try and stab him thru the ear with the blade in my right hand. Thank god he gave a couple more barks and went on his way. My question to the Forum is If you had no other options what would be the most economical way of dispatching of a dog? Thanks, John __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "rob mulligan" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:45:37 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] woodytx Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net So I guess that calling my school "Extreme Tactical Combat Arnis" is a no-no? he-he Rob Mulligan kwikstik.com _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:54:59 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Jimmy Tacosa Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Thanks, Greg, for the info on Jimmy, I'd love to drop him a line sometime, so I'd like to know how to get in touch with him again. Kim In a message dated 10/26/04 6:05:09 AM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Jimmy is in Chicago right now, he should be returning to California soon. > I know he will be returning to Hawaii briefly then back here to the Bay Area. > I will ask him how he would like people to contact him and post it. Good > luck in Iraq. > > > > greg --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] How many were killed - who knows? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > As far as special ops go the only troops that to the best of my > knowledge, that had a price on their heads of $10,000AUS by the Viet Cong > were the SASR. Not sure... what price did they put on Gunny Hathcock's head? What we do know is that Ozzies and Americans are welcomed today in Vietnam, however they still dislike and fear the Koreans for how they fought during the war. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "rob mulligan" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:04:46 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] NY Daily News 10-26-04 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net He was hero to kill bouncer, att'y says BY BARBARA ROSS DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER Tuesday, October 26th, 2004 A Queens martial arts expert on trial for slaying an East Village nightclub bouncer enforcing the city smoking ban was merely defending a pal from the boozed-up and burly doorman, his lawyer argued yesterday. "It wasn't bad or criminal. It was heroic," attorney Alan Lewis said of Isais Umali during opening arguments. Umali, a master in Philippine knife fighting, is charged with stabbing Dana (Shazam) Blake, 32, in the groin after the bouncer tried to enforce the city's then-new smoking ban at Guernica. Blake was evicting Umali's buddy Jonathan Chan for smoking in the trendy Avenue B club on April 13, 2003, when the fight broke out, witnesses said. Assistant District Attorney David Lauscher described the confrontation to eject Chan, his brother and his sister as a pushing-and-shoving match. But Umali's lawyer argued that Blake, who is 6-feet-6 and weighs 366 pounds, had Chan in a choke hold and had lifted him off the ground. Onlookers "clawed" at Blake, who allegedly was seen drinking and dancing, Lewis said. "Isais was suddenly confronted with a choice," Lewis said of his 5-foot-7, 140-pound client. "Inaction or bravery." To protect Chan - the son of the notorious Ghost Shadows gang leader Wing Yeung Chan - Umali gave Blake "a single poke" to his upper thigh with a 6-inch foldup knife used in Kali, a Philippine martial art, Lewis said. The cut measured 1-1/2 to 2 inches, he said, but severed an artery, causing Blake to bleed to death. Lauscher described a far different scene, telling jurors Umali intended to cause Blake's death because he expertly moved his knife in a way "that is designed to cut arteries." One of the prosecution's first witnesses was Allain Atienza, Umali's longtime friend who is an instructor in the art of Kali. Shortly after the stabbing, Umali - "intoxicated" and wearing bloodied clothes - came to Atienza's upper East Side apartment and described how he had stabbed Blake, Atienza testified. Atienza, demonstrating for the jury, extended his index and middle fingers, thrust them forward and turned them 180 degrees before dragging them to the left. Atienza said the purpose of the "twist and pull" motion is to make the wound worse and to inflict pain. _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Arndt Mallepree" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dog fighting Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:35:50 +0200 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In my job as a cop I saw some pitbull attacks. The thing as I see today is, that you cannot say that there is a way to deal with a dog attack meaning dogs in general and pitbulls specifically. Normal dogs can be hit on the nose while trying to catch your arm (good if you put your jacket around the arm). The dog will stop attacking you and if it has bitten your arm already it will let it go! A pitbull will not let go in such a situation because of anatomical reasons. Even if you kill the dog, you will still have to cut the chin muscle in order to open the mouth. Luckily I never had a pitbull on my arm - cause we could shoot it before! Just my experiences with pitbulls! Take care Arndt www.ifcm.de ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leabo" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:36 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Dog fighting > This mornimg while doing my daily walk to the train to > go to work. I had the pleasure of turning the corner > and being about 50 feet from a "Big" stray Pitbull. > > I wish I could say different but I nearly shit my > pants. > > He was sniffing and pissing and had not picked up on > me yet so I immedietly started crossing the busy > intersection (New Hyde Pard Road) while pulling out > my folder (Falcon CRKT). > > As soon as I started crossing he picked up on me and > came after me. Although I almost got hit by a car I > made it across. > > The dog stopped in the shoulder of the street and > began barking, he was staring at me looking as if he > was deciding if he would cross the street after me. > > I kept glancing back but avoided eye contact while > walking slowly. Although my heart was racing and a > million things were going thru my mind I decided if > > he attacked me I would give him my left arm and try > and stab him thru the ear with the blade in my right > hand. > > Thank god he gave a couple more barks and went on his > way. > > My question to the Forum is If you had no other > options what would be the most economical way of > dispatching of a dog? > > > Thanks, > John > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. > http://messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:39:14 -0700 (PDT) From: H R Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dog fighting To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Damn... a pitbull has jaws like that? Seriously, what would you suggest if I saw one running towards me, because in all honesty, I don't know if I'd have the endurance to outrun a pitbull for an extended period of time? Arndt Mallepree wrote: In my job as a cop I saw some pitbull attacks. The thing as I see today is, that you cannot say that there is a way to deal with a dog attack meaning dogs in general and pitbulls specifically. Normal dogs can be hit on the nose while trying to catch your arm (good if you put your jacket around the arm). The dog will stop attacking you and if it has bitten your arm already it will let it go! A pitbull will not let go in such a situation because of anatomical reasons. Even if you kill the dog, you will still have to cut the chin muscle in order to open the mouth. Luckily I never had a pitbull on my arm - cause we could shoot it before! Just my experiences with pitbulls! Take care Arndt www.ifcm.de --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. 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