Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 03:01:52 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #393 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Combat smell test (Ray Terry) 2. Re: planning for success (Ray Terry) 3. Pit Bulls (Jonathan Kessler) 4. Re: Dog fighting (WoodyTX) 5. Re: Pit Bulls (Ray Terry) 6. RE: SEALs in Vietnam (Joe and Sandy Walls) 7. Re: planning for success (WoodyTX) 8. Smelly combat (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat smell test To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Uhhhh.... might I point out that is a VERY sanatized version of their > operational MO? I know guys who worked with the ROKs and well, putting it > mildly, these special forces guys were a little unnerved by exactly how the > Koreans aquired their intel. They also were uncomfortable with the extremes > that the ROKs took their version of "psychological" warfare in order to keep > the AO quiet. If the SEALS, Rangers and LRRPs were feared by the NVA/VC, it > was nothing in comparison to the terror that the ROKs instilled because they > didn't have many of the hesitations that Westerners did. In fact, they kinda > made the Phoenix boys look all kinds of cute and cuddly. That kill ratio > isn't exaggerated, but one needs to realize what they did to get it. The ROKs were rather proud of the fact that Korea was not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions. > ... Having said that, > your contention was it was the "preferred" weapon of certain special ops > groups. I maintain it is a weapon that was used for specific jobs rather > than being categorically preferred in general combat. I suspect that we are still in violent agreement here. In general, if you didn't shoot them or blow them up you had screwed up badly. (is there an echo in here?) But as indicated, for some forces in the ops they planned in advance, the preferred weapon was frequently not something that went bang. This is one way they sent a "message" to the VC/NVA to leave the area, asap. And it worked! When Charles or the NVA were actually brave/stupid enough to attack them, I suspect their daggers didn't get all that much use. For great bedtime stories for your kids, read to them about some of the parties thrown by the "Tiger" Division in the Binh Dinh province of South Vietnam. Great family fun. Ray "I'm kidding on that last part" Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] planning for success To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > snip snip snip snip > > AND since using a knife on another human being is considered a lethal force > issue, instead of you speculating on "Well if I ever had to use it I'd..." I > recommend going and taking Massad Ayoob's Judicious Use of Lethal Force to > see exactly what standards your actions will be judged by IF it ever does > happen. Agreed. And for those in the Detroit area, you may still be able to get into the last class of 2004, November 6-7. Perhaps the best $350 you'll spend this year, and next. If you own a gun, then look at his LFI-1 class instead. Last class this year is in Live Oak, FL, December 16-19. $700. It was $500 back when I took it, so hurry before the price continues up. Ray "Just a satisfied customer" Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:46:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Kessler To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Pit Bulls Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Couple of points on Pit Bulls from an owner who has broken up more than his share of dogfights: 1. Their jaws do not "lock" - their jawbones are not anatomically different from other dogs. They are just phenomenally strong. The difference between them and other dogs is kind of like the difference between getting Gorilla Monsoon to release a chokehold vs. getting Howdy Doody to release it. 2. They don't go into shock, and they are remarkably pain tolerant. So beating them doesn't make them stop. Putting a stick up their anus *will* do so, as it totally surprises them - perfectly valid way to break up a dogfight. Difficult to do if you are being attacked, though. Best way to get them off another dog or person is a "breaking stick" - short solid stick wedged into their jaws and used as a prybar. Grab collar (if they are wearing one) or scruff of neck while you do so. http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html 3. Most PB's actually like people. Hard to believe given the media hysteria, but most of you have, I believe, seen enough media hysteria on other topics to know that the daily news doesn't always print accurate stories, they print stories that sell. Most PB's that see you on the street would be far more inclined to come over for pets or treats than to bite you unprovoked. There are definite exceptions - people (gang bangers, for instance - lived in Venice for a while) do incredibly cruel things to these dogs to get them unbalanced and fierce. 4. In answer to the original question "what would you do if attacked and only had a knife?" I would answer - If you don't have enough dog experience to avoid the bite and strike, give up your arm to a bite. Once biting, a PB will hold on. Cut it's throat while it holds on. Haven't had to do it myself, so take this with a grain of salt. On the other hand, I've been around a lot of pits, familiar and unfamilar, in homes, parks, and strays on the streets, broken up fights with strange dogs, and have never been attacked, though there have been times I have had to deal with unfriendly and or aggressive pits. Never been bitten by one while breaking up a fight (though I've been bitten by other breeds while breaking up dogfights). Never been attacked by a PB. There's probably a reason for that. 5. If you want to continue to believe the media hysteria it's your life and your perogative. If you'd like to learn more about the breed, try www.badrap.org Start with http://www.badrap.org/rescue/myths.cfm Get to the adoption and "happy endings" stories. You will read about dogs who survived unbelievable abuse - acid burns, being dragged behind trucks, slashed, etc etc, and still maintained their love for human beings. I'll get off the soapbox now... JK __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:34:06 -0500 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dog fighting Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I jog with at least one decent knife. If attacked by a dog, I and plan on sacrificing my left arm and stabbing it behind the jaw (base of the skull) and trying to saw the damn thing's head off. I also occasionally run with a stick, and I still carry the blade(s). I'd let it chew on the stick instead of me. Most dogs respond pretty well to kicks, but some (pit bulls, etc) won't. Also, a well-socialized dog won't attack unless it or its property is threatened. Assuming the stick survives the attack, I'd be willing to use it on the dog's owner, or whoever taught it to react like that.... WoodyTX On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:36:37 -0700 (PDT), Leabo wrote: > > My question to the Forum is If you had no other > options what would be the most economical way of > dispatching of a dog? > > Thanks, > John --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Pit Bulls To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ok... I'll bore y'all with my recent PB story. While walking in my neighborhood with 'she who must be obeyed' (my girlfriend) we noticed a couple of PBs on chains sitting by their owners(?) in their front lawn. We were on the sidewalk, me on the streetside like my momma taught me. As we approached, the two PBs alerted and came directly at us. I watched the one in front as the chain played out and could tell that it would run out of chain a few feet before it would reach us. But I neglected to notice that the chain on the second one wasn't secured until it was about four feet from my girl's leg. I remember thinking "this is gonna hurt" as I went to punch the dog in the head. I figured he was quicker than me, would adjust to the threat and have my arm for lunch. But that didn't happen. I popped him in the head while yelling 'No', at the same time the owners called them off. Either the pop or their command did the trick and the PB that reached us quickly stopped and retreated back to his owners. Did I yell at the owners? Hell no! Did I mention that they had two dogs and all I had for protection was one rather angry blonde? :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Joe and Sandy Walls" To: Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:18:25 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: SEALs in Vietnam Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Finally, if memory serves Gunny Hathcock had 100,000 piasters put on his head. Think Richard Marcinko claimed in Rouge Warrior that his unit had a price on their heads, as did other riverine SEAL units that got off the beaten path)-Buz Grover My First Lieutenant in the Navy was a man named Mike Thornton( Medal of Honor recipient with SEAL team 2 ),one of the baddest SOB's I've ever met and yes, Ive heard stories of most of the SEALs having prices on their heads as well...tho I don't know exact $$. Respects and regards, Joe Walls Jr. Inayan Federation of Eskrima www.inayaneskrima.com Inayan Systems International --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:16:27 -0500 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] planning for success Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hang on, we've got oranges in the apple cart..... :-) I believe the original post was about someone in your house with intent to do bodily harm. If I initiated the fight, then I'm stupider than I look (and that's saying something). If I strip the knife, then have to chase the poor fool around the bar three or four times before killing him, then that's equally stupid. If I control his wrist and turn it into him, that's a bit different. The big factors here are the ones that aren't being talked about: What was the situation that led to the attack? What was the location of the attack? Who were the players? What were the details of the attack? Who makes the decision to prosecute, and why? These are the things that will send you to jail. Frankly, in Texas, you can use deadly force to protect your life, another's life, or your property. You can also use deadly force to protect your automobile at night (according to the info I have). However, the key to how this will be interpreted isn't the dead man on the floor, it's the report of the investigating officer and the attitude of the DA. I've been shooting for far, far longer than I've been a martial artist, and I've run up against these issues before. That said, I entirely agree that everyone out there who carries a blade, or thinks that someday they may have to defend against one, (in decreasing order of accessibility) read Ayoob's book ("In the Gravest Extreme"), take an NRA class, or attend Ayoob's (or similar) classes. WoodyTX On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:21:47 -0600, Marc Macyoung wrote: > WoodyTX sed > > I'm no lawyer, but I doubt that a jury would convict you if you took > > your assailant's knife and killed him with it. Just because you > > disarmed him AS HE TRIED TO KILL YOU does not mean that you are now > > murdering a man in cold blood. > > It may surprise you, but there are many states where "He needed killing" is > not considered a legitimate motive for killing someone. I know it has worked > in Texas before...but there are places where it just doesn't fly. Kind of > like not every state has a "make my day law" like Colorado -- where I now > live. Being from California, and having lived in several other states, I can > assure you that things can get legally squirrelly elsewhere. > (snip) > Knowing how to strike is easy, the challenge is knowing when and how hard > you must strike. > > M --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Eskrima] Smelly combat Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > But again, creating terror and victimizing civilians is not combat. > Therefore using these examples to show the combat proven effectiveness of a > knife, much less an empty handed fighting style is a red herring argument. P.S. I am unclear as to which portion(s) of your email this in referrence to. But if is a comment on the tactics of the American and ROK special forces that I mentioned then your intel is off, way way off. And what they did should pass any smell test for combat. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest