Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:10:05 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #394 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Dog fighting (H R) 2. RE: (new string) Height disadvantage (Black Power Ranger) 3. Re: Dog fighting (Arndt Mallepree) 4. Re: Dog fighting (Leabo) 5. Re: Dog fighting (Ray Terry) 6. Re: (new string) Height disadvantage (Ray Terry) 7. Re:planning for success (Marc Macyoung) 8. Black Belt mag v42, #11 (Bill Lowery) 9. Re: Black Belt mag v42, #11 (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Pit Bulls (virgil quitson) 11. Re: Black Belt mag v42, #11 (Mike Casto) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:37:16 -0700 (PDT) From: H R Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Dog fighting To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I don't even want to imagine what it would've been like had that been a child. I'd personally love to walk around carrying a kamagong, but I wouldn't be surprised if a neighbor considered calling the cops on someone walking around with a stick. Karen Pence wrote:There is a guy in my neighborhood that walks every day, and he carry's a big walking stick to defend him self. He has been charged by a pit bull in the neighborhood before. Fortunately, the dog didn't attack him, but scared the bejesus out of him.... We had an incident on Sunday, where 2 pit bulls were allowed to run loose, went into the neighbors garage, chased the cat out of the garage, and proceeded to catch it and tore it to pieces. What is that had been a child. Karen Pence --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Black Power Ranger" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] (new string) Height disadvantage Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 06:37:37 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net After practicing serrada i noticed that some counters are especially hard to cope with (mainly cross block on the three for me). It's apparent to me that because of this difficulty that eskrima favors the shorter people. For those taller eskrimadors, how do you cope with it? What do you do? Norm _________________________________________________________________ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Arndt Mallepree" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dog fighting Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:57:11 +0200 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net With only a knife I would give away my arm, too and cut the throat. The thing with the strong jaws has another bad side! If you give your arm to have a controlled bit your bones will break. So you must be prepared to that, too! And to the point with the dogs charackter only one thing: The asshole is always on the other side of the line - seen from the dog! That means that only men make those animals aggressive and men-attacking! Train hard - train smart Arndt --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:06:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Leabo Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dog fighting To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I was hoping some of the Special ops people on the forum would have chimed in on proper canine sentry removal. But I appreciate everyones reply. Thanks, John --- WoodyTX wrote: > I jog with at least one decent knife. If attacked > by a dog, I and > plan on sacrificing my left arm and stabbing it > behind the jaw (base > of the skull) and trying to saw the damn thing's > head off. I also > occasionally run with a stick, and I still carry the > blade(s). I'd > let it chew on the stick instead of me. > > Most dogs respond pretty well to kicks, but some > (pit bulls, etc) won't. > > Also, a well-socialized dog won't attack unless it > or its property is > threatened. Assuming the stick survives the attack, > I'd be willing to > use it on the dog's owner, or whoever taught it to > react like that.... > > WoodyTX > > > On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:36:37 -0700 (PDT), Leabo > wrote: > > > > > My question to the Forum is If you had no other > > options what would be the most economical way of > > dispatching of a dog? > > > > Thanks, > > John > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dog fighting To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I was hoping some of the Special ops people on the > forum would have chimed in on proper canine sentry > removal. I'm not special in anything. But I don't think anyone is going to sneak up on a dog to remove them. Shoot them in the head with a suppressed weapon. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] (new string) Height disadvantage To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 08:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > After practicing serrada i noticed that some counters are especially hard to > cope with (mainly cross block on the three for me). It's apparent to me > that because of this difficulty that eskrima favors the shorter people. For > those taller eskrimadors, how do you cope with it? What do you do? Hi Norm, How tall are you? I'm 6'1" and I haven't notice too much of a problem. Sometimes you must adjust slightly given bad knees or bad back or extreme height. e.g. on the #3 cross block the movement is to step in with the right foot leaving the left foot planted, yes? If you are on the taller side you may also need to take a very slight back step with the left to put yourself into proper position. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:08:58 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Re:planning for success Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: WoodyTX > Hang on, we've got oranges in the apple cart..... :-) Nah, even worse, we got lawyers in the woodpile... > I believe the original post was about someone in your house with > intent to do bodily harm. Actually, it was about in AZ -- a very gun friendly state -- shooting someone who is already down and without the immediate means of implementing his threat. Remember, you shot him, he fell and dropped the gun. You cap him after he has lost the means to do you bodily harm. You later mention that in Texas shooting someone -- on your property -- who is trying to steal your property is acceptable. Well, there are still certain conditions, (I'm certain shooting a kid for TPing your house would be frowned upon even by the Texas courts). But you are correct that a lot more leeway is giving to shooting an intruder in your home down in the greats State of... Having said that, in California, I assure you that life is almost always given precident over property. As such, if you shoot a burlgar in your home who is not actively attacking you, you're the one in deep caca. Radically different standards in different locations. The reason that Colorado implemented the "Make my Day Law" was the conflict between the Texas and California attitudes regarding home intrusions (lots of both moving here) and it had to be formalized to tell people what they could and couldn't do. And even the it isn't a hunting license, there are all kinds of restrictions The point is that you need to know what is and is NOT acceptable in your state according to the legal precedents of that location. This is especially true if you are the instructor. Because what you are teaching is exactly what the student will attempt to do -- if he/she finds himself in a live-fire situation. >If I initiated the fight, then I'm stupider > than I look (and that's saying something). If I strip the knife, then > have to chase the poor fool around the bar three or four times before > killing him, then that's equally stupid. If I control his wrist and > turn it into him, that's a bit different. See now that is exactly what we're talking about. Having said that, let me point out another really, funky problem. The fecal matter hitting the oscilating blades is not a situation where your "rational" mind is in charge. Usually what I call "Thongor the Learning Impaired" is running the boat. The reason I say "Learning Impaired" is that on a Thongor level, quite often the guy just being still in front of you means -- to Thongor -- that he is still attacking. Even if the guy is turning away and trying to run. To Thongor, "Him there, him still threat. Ook ook, attack!" Which is why so often if you train to orient on your attacker, you're going to keep on attacking -- even if he is trying to get away. Thongor still sees an attacker, everyone else sees you chasing the guy around. This is why BTW, there is such a huge disconnect between what people think was happening (and what they did) and what the videos show. The guy who is in Thongor mode swears up and down that the dude was still attacking when in fact, the dude was turning to run. From Thongor's perception, the fact that the dude was still in his sight means he was still attacking. A lot of people go on about adrenal stress conditioning as the ultimate training. Unfortunately, many people don't realize that training for this doesn't mean you get to go beserk on the guy. What it is is an introduction and awareness of what happens hand how you have to train to handle what happens. There is all kinds of big assed reasons that I train people in my knife classes to "cut and run." The number one reason is to get the guy out of Thongor's line of sight, so you don't go postal on the dude and slash him 27 times. Thereby creating a wound pattern that is more consistent with a homicide than self-defense. Training people to correctly channel this Thongor reaction is -- no lie -- one of the hardest components of developing an effective training cirriculum. You gotta know what it feels like, how it operates and what it does before you can start tailoring a system to channel it appropriately. Again, cut and run is designed to function with the Thongor response so you screw yourself if you ever find yourself in live fire situation. Learning how to "control" this aspect is far more complicated than people think it is. This is a primal beast, and you cannot control it intellectually in the grip of an adrenalin rush. Therefore your training must ingrain appropriate reactions for when your rational brain is off line...AS IS rational brain based training and subtle, sophisiticated movement patterns. When the adrenalin rush hits you, all kinds of fancy, subtle stuff goes right out the window, as does anything that isn't ingrained to appropriately channel Thongor's response. This leaves Thongor going ape shit with a certain degree of training, but with no legitimate checks and balances. What you end up with most types of training looks more like a wild, scared pissed off monkey with a knife. If it don't get you killed, it is going to get you in trouble. This why I mentioned in my WIMs page (don't worry Todd, I'll get back to you) the contradiction that many people have who -- want to be out of control enough to give them an excuse to use violence and yet -- still in control enough to do all this peechy keeno killer kung fu moves they know. Think wild monkey with a knife. When I talk about training for success, you gotta ingrain an understanding of levels of force so deeply that Thongor grasps the concept. That is about the only thing I have ever found to counterbalance the adrenalin rush. Instead of going apeshit on the dude, you have to train Thongor to be able to recognize when it is time to say "Him dickweed, me no break." Equally important though Thongor needs to know when it is time to say "Him gone NOW!" and be able to do it without all kinds of ineffective flailing and extraneous stuff. In any case, the situation needs to be over in three moves. Thongor is trained to finish it now. Either the guy is stunned and you are gone, he is whirled flipped and controlled without damage, or he is gasping his last. If this is not your goal in "self-defense" training (as opposed to learning an art/system) then you are functionally handing the monkey a knife. Because that is how you will react BUT... and in case nobody noticed, it is a big but...you need to be able to articulate what it was that lead Thongor to decide why whatever level you did was necessary. Which leads us to the next point. > The big factors here are the ones that aren't being talked about: What > was the situation that led to the attack? What was the location of > the attack? Who were the players? What were the details of the > attack? Who makes the decision to prosecute, and why? These are the > things that will send you to jail. Abo-luddly. Your actions -- in both prefight conditions and in the aftermath -- WILL be reviewed, weighed and judged. So will the other dudes. While many people think it will be cut and dried, a mugger jumping out of the bushes, very little violence occurs this way. As such, it is the exception rather than the rule. The cops and the courts know this, so they will be looking at you pre and post altercation actions. > Frankly, in Texas, you can use deadly force to protect your life, > another's life, or your property. You can also use deadly force to > protect your automobile at night (according to the info I have). > However, the key to how this will be interpreted isn't the dead man on > the floor, it's the report of the investigating officer and the > attitude of the DA. I've been shooting for far, far longer than I've > been a martial artist, and I've run up against these issues before. Which is a point I've been trying to get across to the MA community for years. However, what I often encounter is the "I know this" response before they go toodling off to teach neck breaks from behind as self-defense. Hell, I'm impressed. Here I've done a lot of research on the subject, and the more I know, the more realize how little I know on the subject. For the raw reason that it is so very big, complex, varied and subtle. Somehow I must have missed the boat that took these guys to immediate omnicience about appropriate use of force and their fighting art. Damn, ain't I a retard? > That said, I entirely agree that everyone out there who carries a > blade, or thinks that someday they may have to defend against one, (in > decreasing order of accessibility) read Ayoob's book ("In the Gravest > Extreme"), take an NRA class, or attend Ayoob's (or similar) classes. Knives work, plan for success, kiddies. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 22:19:13 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Black Belt mag v42, #11 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, On the features page of the above magazine listed on page 90 is "Smack, Crank and Scream!", A student of the "late" Ciriaco "Cacoy" Canete..." When did he die? And if he did, why has it been so quiet around here? Bill --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Black Belt mag v42, #11 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > On the features page of the above magazine listed on page 90 is "Smack, > Crank and Scream!", A student of the "late" Ciriaco "Cacoy" Canete..." > > When did he die? And if he did, why has it been so quiet around here? News to me. As far as I know he was still with us three weeks ago or so. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:40:33 -0700 (PDT) From: virgil quitson Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Pit Bulls To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Glad you mentioned the breakstick, was about to do it myself. I have 4 tosa's so I feel you on this. If you have a knife and its blade is wide enough, you can use it like a breakstick. Insert it into the side of the mouth where the teeth are small and turn it to pry the dogs jaws apart. Could be a problem if no one is there to pull the dog off you cuz he might re-engage. I'd suggest cutting him deeply and applying the breakstick technique. I agree with JK, APBT's are not naturally man aggressive, they are dog aggressive. If they are man aggressive it is only because they were schooled that way or should have been culled in the first place. Gamedogs have to be handled by men and being human aggressive is not an acceptable trait. You are more likely to get bitten by a lab, poodle, pointer or any other naturally man aggressive breed than you would a tosa or a pit. Don't believe the negative hype. Jonathan Kessler wrote: Couple of points on Pit Bulls from an owner who has broken up more than his share of dogfights: 1. Their jaws do not "lock" - their jawbones are not anatomically different from other dogs. They are just phenomenally strong. The difference between them and other dogs is kind of like the difference between getting Gorilla Monsoon to release a chokehold vs. getting Howdy Doody to release it. 2. They don't go into shock, and they are remarkably pain tolerant. So beating them doesn't make them stop. Putting a stick up their anus *will* do so, as it totally surprises them - perfectly valid way to break up a dogfight. Difficult to do if you are being attacked, though. Best way to get them off another dog or person is a "breaking stick" - short solid stick wedged into their jaws and used as a prybar. Grab collar (if they are wearing one) or scruff of neck while you do so. http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html 3. Most PB's actually like people. Hard to believe given the media hysteria, but most of you have, I believe, seen enough media hysteria on other topics to know that the daily news doesn't always print accurate stories, they print stories that sell. Most PB's that see you on the street would be far more inclined to come over for pets or treats than to bite you unprovoked. There are definite exceptions - people (gang bangers, for instance - lived in Venice for a while) do incredibly cruel things to these dogs to get them unbalanced and fierce. 4. In answer to the original question "what would you do if attacked and only had a knife?" I would answer - If you don't have enough dog experience to avoid the bite and strike, give up your arm to a bite. Once biting, a PB will hold on. Cut it's throat while it holds on. Haven't had to do it myself, so take this with a grain of salt. On the other hand, I've been around a lot of pits, familiar and unfamilar, in homes, parks, and strays on the streets, broken up fights with strange dogs, and have never been attacked, though there have been times I have had to deal with unfriendly and or aggressive pits. Never been bitten by one while breaking up a fight (though I've been bitten by other breeds while breaking up dogfights). Never been attacked by a PB. There's probably a reason for that. 5. If you want to continue to believe the media hysteria it's your life and your perogative. If you'd like to learn more about the breed, try www.badrap.org Start with http://www.badrap.org/rescue/myths.cfm Get to the adoption and "happy endings" stories. You will read about dogs who survived unbelievable abuse - acid burns, being dragged behind trucks, slashed, etc etc, and still maintained their love for human beings. I'll get off the soapbox now... JK __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Mike Casto" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Black Belt mag v42, #11 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:43:32 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If he died, it had to have been after July since I saw him in Dayton at that point. I'm sure that if he had died, there would have been *a lot* of ripples in the FMA community. Even outside the Doce Pares organization, he's a highly regarded and respected eskrimador who would be missed by many. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lowery" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 5:19 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Black Belt mag v42, #11 > Hi All, > > On the features page of the above magazine listed on page 90 is "Smack, > Crank and Scream!", A student of the "late" Ciriaco "Cacoy" Canete..." > > When did he die? And if he did, why has it been so quiet around here? > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 1900 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest