Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 03:01:50 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #398 - 1 msg X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 1900 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Two of Marc MacYoung's recent threads Q (Marc Macyoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 02:02:25 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Two of Marc MacYoung's recent threads Q Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Okay, I now have time to answer the first part of this oh-so-sweet and friendly post... > From: "Todd Ellner" > Cutting through the verbiage your final message is that "classical martial > arts" are useless for fighting and self defense. Before you start in, I'm > fully aware of the difference between the two. You dance around the subject > and spill a lot of ink, but that's what it comes down to. Actually I am on record saying that ANY martial art can be effective for self-defense. The idea being that SD is about getting out of danger -- now. As such, any style can be used to that end. It's called parry and run. It's standing around and trying to "win" that things begin to go wrong. Both physically as well as legally. As for martial arts teaching "fighting." Doesn't your guru talk about how his grandmother used to say that in the old country when someone was a good fighter people didn't care what style he knew, it was his fighting ability that mattered. Interesting comment no? (Oh in case you doubt this, I have him on tape saying that.) Thing is, I agree with the sentiment, but for my own reasons. Most of the people I know who are good fighters are that because of other attributes rather than what "style" they know. In cases like this, martial arts training auguments existing prowess. So in case you missed my point, just because you know a martial art, doesn't mean you have what it takes to be a "good fighter." And besides, with all that I do go on about the other benefits of classical martial arts (and on that I freely admit to being wrong when I was younger), why is it so important that they be good for fighting? Which incidentally, is illegal. I mean what is this obsession people have about fighting? Not just SD, but fighting? As someone who used to do a lot of it, I can tell you it ain't all it is cracked up to be. Why do you care if your "martial art" is good for fighting? How often do you fight? Is that a common problem in your life? If it isn't then why fixate on that aspect? While I'm at it. What is this obsession people have with knowing a deadly combat art? Hell, point the gun and pull the trigger, you get better effects with less practice. Thing is when I point this out, people either start coming up with excuses about the complexities of always carrying a gun (Hell I and countless criminals in LA didn't have that much of a problem) or they start going on about how the arts are so much more. And you know what? I agree with them, they are so much more. And if that is the case, then quit fixating on using them for some deadly uber- fight against slavering hordes of evil doers. If, on the other hand, you are in a high-risk situation/profession then you better practice something that fits with the situational needs and legal restrictions of the environment. And more importantly, something that works NOW! All those other kewl things that you get from martial arts study need to be put on the back burner until the current situation is resolved. > The intersecting circle diagrams on your site are not terribly helpful. All > they say is that whatever other people do can only be very slightly about > self defense or fighting and that what you do is better. Being as I teach citizens, WSD, martial artists, police, correctional officers and military I find all kinds of differences in goals, tactics, requirements and mindsets. What's more, I also recognize a big difference between training for and actually doing. Which if you don't, then obviously the Venn Diagram on http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/martialarts.html won't make sense to you. If, for whatever personal reasons, you don't want there to be a difference between just training and really doing it, then the explination provided by the diagram really will be objectionable to you. I don't know Todd, just how objectional is it to you on a scale of one to ten? Oh, and because you apparently missed this point, I have never claimed to have all the answers. What my goal is is to get people to study and consider the complexities of the issues; this instead of thinking that just because they know (fill in the blank) they're qualified in all those little circles that apparently confuse you so much. I happen to know a lot of instructors in those other fields who would disagree with the idea that knowing one means you know them all. I've been studying these issues for 35 years now and I still don't even fully understand all the factors that go into the problems, much less have the answers. As for your last line about "what you do is better".... Can you say "projection" boys and girls? > The amount of venom you demonstrate towards martial arts is rather > surprising. I say surprising because you claim to teach Pencak Silat. What > makes this doubly mystifying is that you don't give credit to any of the > people you learned it from. I don't? Damn boy don't you read? http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/Dango-jiro.htm Looks like giving credit to me. BTW, in the new books coming out, one with Tristan Sutrisno, another on Effective Offense and a third from Paladin I again give very long lists of people who I have learned from and attributions. Come to think of it, I regularly give credit and cite sources where I got something from, in writing and seminars. Unless you don't qualify anything other than wearing knee pads as giving credit, I think you're ignoring reality in favor of your own pet agendas. >You haven't even completed the basic curriculum > of any of the systems which you might claim to teach. To say that you teach > the essence or analytic framework without having been through at least the > fundamentals need not be dignified with comment. Then why are you commenting? Actually, because of my former association with Mr. Plinck the class is called Silat by the Castle Rock Rec Center. That was the study group. It was a way to separate that group from my wife's karate class while still remaining under the insurance policy. Unfortunately, because the study group -- for a time -- eclipsed my own teachings, I'm sort of stuck with the damn class name. If you will notice I don't claim to teach any particular style of silat, nor do I claim to teach the pentjak. However, what I do teach, after nearly a decade of working with various practictioners is greatly influenced by silat. (EEK! Did I just give credit there?) Although personally, I'd like nothing more than to distance myself from the entire commercial silat world because of the politics, pettiness, backbiting, arrogance, self-importance and delusions of warrior grandeur that they seem to cherish so much. As far as I am concerned they can go their merry way and I will go mine. I will be the first to admit that silat has many fine and valuable concepts. I am especially indebted to Guru Plinck for his teachings and the assistance it gave me in clarifying a great number of concepts that I had been struggling with. In many ways I had reached a barrier regarding physical skill that I was stuck in. The study I did with Steve, helped me break through many of my physical limitations and opened many vistas of understanding that I had sensed, but could not articulate. Furthermore, he also helped me go back and review under a new light many concepts that I already knew. Many of these took on fascinating new implications when looked with the information Steve was providing. Having said this, I will also say that I found previously, or since, those same concepts in other styles. Maybe not all in one place, but they are known to other martial art styles. Which is what I mean when I say "Truth is not propriatary. If something is true, then you will be able to find examples of it in other places as well" A sentiment that you unwittingly echoed when you yourself said > People have been pugging >for about five million years. The basics haven't changed much. If someone's >got them it doesn't matter What I will also say however, is that my friend Tristan, really helped clarify many concepts that Steve could do wonderfully, but not articulate. Things like weight transfer, placement, pose, positioning, critical and safe distance. Topics which we discuss in our book Error Detection. But that book will not be of interest to you because they are not explained in the context of pentjak silat, but rather plain old hard style karate. So don't bother to buy it. Then you go on to say in this little doosey of a paragraph... > It also flies in the face of your personal statements about the skills and > level of understanding of at least three men. I will not embarrass either of > us by bringing up their names. All I need to say is that your recent words > do not jibe with what you said about them some time ago. Were you under the > impression that their egos needed stroking through flattery and false > praise? Or do you believe that you can afford to be rude and dismissive now > that you've gotten what you want from them? I can assure you that the first > is not true. The second is not the mark of an honest man. Well you certainly do hint about a lot here. But what the hell, let's bring this out into the open. Have I ever said anything negative about their skills or their understanding of their art? Or do my "problems" with them arise from other issues? Despite your insinuations to the contrary, I do give credit where credit is due, especially when it comes to skills and understanding.. But, I don't have much patience for certain types of behavior these days. You ask if I am "rude and dismissive"... Let's hold them up to the same criteria, shall we? Let's talk about bad mouthing other instructors, shall we? But, before you even think of answering this, you need to know I have first hand experience with the very behavior you are accusing me from one of the very gentlemen you are referring. To the point of badmouthing my former sifu Hawkins Cheung to my face, railing about a personal friend of mine's choice not to further engage in silat politics and then sitting in another friend's kitchen and leading a dissin' party about the inferiority of other notable martial artists...including Danny Inosanto and others whom I respect. Do I want to imagine what he is saying about me? Although I'm sure you have heard an earful, keep it to yourself, I am not interested in hearing it. While this does not reflect on this person's skill and understading, this behavior does not engender respect in me for him as a person. If I have a problem with someone I either state my position clearly TO that person and seek some form of resolution or I don't deal with them. I don't badmouth them to other people, nor do I criticize them as people -- even if I disagree whith what they are doing. I will admit that I will critique -- in general terms -- problems that I see within the martial arts world and certain types of instruction. I will however, back up my arguments as logically and fully as I can. However, if I do not, name names or use terms specific to that individual, I am not pointing a finger at any one person/system. The sad thing is, I wish it was a case of pointing a finger at one group, but a lot of what I say is pretty widespread. Unfortunately, often people in situations that I am describing get uncomfortable because what I am saying hits a little too close to the bone. Well, as my late father-in-law used to say "If the shoe fits wear it; and I hope it pinches" I'd answer more, but I have to get up tomarrow morning and teach a class where I probably won't give any credit to anybody who might have contributed to what I am sharing....I am just oh-so-selfish that way dontcha know.... M --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest