Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 11:01:14 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #449 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Pekiti/Dekiti (Beungood8@aol.com) 2. Pekiti/Pekit/Dikit and Tercia (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. Re:re: Eskrima for Self Defense (Ken Ingram) 4. Kim's lefty reprise (Q) 5. Re: re: Eskrima for Self Defense (Ken Ingram) 6. re: Eskrima for Self Defense (Marc Macyoung) 7. Re: LSAI club at ADB (Felipe Jocano) 8. dekiti tirsia sarradas (Genfil Villahermosa) 9. Re: dekiti tirsia sarradas (Genfil Villahermosa) 10. Re: RE: New Website for Dekiti Tirsia Siradas (Genfil Villahermosa) 11. Marc or not (Ray Terry) 12. Re:re: Eskrima for Self Defense (Krishna Das) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:39:03 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Pekiti/Dekiti Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 12/11/2004 11:54:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: think GM Jerson Tortal just changed the word Pekiti to Dekiti to reflect his own branding of the same family style, although the differences in his movement from GM Gaje's are quite very obvious. (Think of it as GM Leung Ting branding his own school of Wing Chun as "WING TSUN" spelled with a T instead of a CH in order to brand his particular school and lineage.) Can you go into a more detailed comparison between the two Masters? Do you train with either of them? Jack --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 18:42:59 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Pekiti/Pekit/Dikit and Tercia Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, I just want to point the meaning of this words Pekiti-Tersia, I am a pure Tagalog, my Tagalog is deep or we spoke the old style tagalog. Pekiti, is an old term of closed, now the Filipino dicitionary only recognized the word as "Pikit" meaning closed, for example "Pikit mo ang mata" meaning "Close your eyes". Yes I heard this too to Bicolano but the Bicolano words that I speak is closed to the Visayan dialects. In refers of Tersia, in Tagalog, this commonly used to the "Third part" or commonly used as Tirsio or Ikatlo. So if I am giving meaning of the Pikiti-Tirsia, I would believed their refering the same meaning, Closed Range, the third part of common ranges. Primary the Largo is the first part, Secondary the Medio, is the second part, and Pikiti-Tersia or corto would be the third parts. Dikit, is also meaning close or glued together.. This words is commonly used in Tagalog, Visayan, Bicolano, and other dialect in the Philippines. Pekiti, is also a slung Tagalog words we used for a little at that time. is like word for pack. Just my two cent on the words. But whatever the Tortal family think of it, is okay, their the founder oft his arts, they can give whatever meaning they want to give. They are the authority of this system name.. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > The Tortal family system was called Pekiti-Tirsia or > Piquete Tersia/Tercia because it emphasized really > close range techniques. The Spanish word "piquete" has > been Filipinized in many dialects. One time when my > father and I went to this place, a big bus was trying > to squeeze itself into a small parking lot. He > commented, "Masyadong PIKITI (PEKITI) ang bus na yan > sa pader" (that bus is too CLOSE to the wall). I > inferred that his use of the word "pikiti/pekiti" came > from his Bicolano vocabulary as I've never seen or > heard that word even in standard Tagalog dictionaries. > The word apparently has been absorbed in other > dialects, e.g., Visayan, Ilonggo, Bicolano, etc. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:56:07 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Ingram To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re:[Eskrima] re: Eskrima for Self Defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Krishna, You have a serious bug up your ass. Get it out, use your sense of humor and lighten up. You are way out of pocket and blind to the opportunities in front of you. Your reading comprehension is being misapplied. Cease this attempt at starting a flame war. It damages your credibility. On Sat, 11 Dec 2004, Krishna Das wrote: > -- ============================================================================ As recently as 1972, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia said that the jury has an "...unreviewable and irreversible power... to acquit in disregard of the instructions on the law given by the trial judge...." -- (US vs Dougherty, 473 F 2d 1113, 1139 (1972)) http://www.caught.net http://fija.org --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:25:35 -0800 (PST) From: Q To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kim's lefty reprise Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kim wrote: <> What I say is not theory but proven from masters and my now 30+ years training. Read on... your own post proves my point. <> This does not impress me and I am sure is seminar dependant assuming this is a real instructor. What is Espada y daga? Are you any less dead if I bait you with my dominant hand and stick you with my short dagger? <> Is that because you think you need the most power? Is your left hand more coordinated? why do you think? <> Yes spontaneity, or "realtime" and so that means handedness does not matter. All that is important is that you see what is coming to counter. Like Sigung Lee said closest target with closest weapon the essence of JKD. If you happened to be right lead forward and something is coming to you quickly right to left you would not turn to the false lead and take it with your left as your first instinct would you? I say take it with the right while striking back with the left...it is faster and more efficient under most conditions and is what happens when it hits the fan because simplicity is what works in combat. If you think that using the dominant left as the kill hand while deflecting with your right is all about using the dominant hand then we agree but have different vocabulary. You see to me using the right non-dominat to set up the left dominant are equal in importance otherwise I could not set-up the left for the kill. So you see in my mind it is all about ambidexterity and moving beyond the first level of Siniwalli matching left stroke for right stroke and instead doing like above one hand does one task one hand does another. The only important issue is that each hand do its task. <> And so there you have it...it is all a matter of training. If you had a right out a check lightening fast before the other guy or he would get the $1000 Ferrari would you use your dominant left hand or the one trained to write? I'm still with Crafty on this one at the early stages Siniwalli is where it is at. Later long short brings you to the next level, then single stick with live hand being the kill hand brings it even higher. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. 4305 Torrance Blvd., Suite 102 Torrance, Ca. 90503 310-371-2337 270-918-6873fax Cosmetic General Dentistry --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:52:30 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Ingram To: kingram@sdl.org cc: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re: Eskrima for Self Defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 13:03:24 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Ingram To: Marc Macyoung Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re: Eskrima for Self Defense I didn't want to engage in a flamewar so I started to post only to you but on second thought, I rarely say anything so maybe I should just speak publicly. Which made this post much longer than it might have been. This Krishna guy seems to really be spoiling for a fight. I really don't get the ire. It must be easier to talk shit by email than I thought. But I have to applaud you on your restraint. Even though someone with such low reading comprehension probably isn't worth crushing an unrestrined ego might have taken the bite. I'd say your response was pretty ego-less. I have a book and a tape of yours I bought back in the mid '90s at a gun show. I found it interesting and a little scary all at the same time. It's really funny how egos get caught up in this "Martial Arts" philosophy bullshido and completely lose sight of the fact that most, if not all, of the time, people committed to harming you do not provide easy targets. This makes "self-defense" a bunch of malarky IN MY OPINION. I agree with you just based on your posts. I'll read your site and see what else we agree on. Hell, we might be long lost brothers. [This is where the post gets longer...] That being said. I'll say this to those others who may be reading. Many people hope to earn a living teaching MA. Cool. Good for them. The problem, however, is that some people care not a whit for the false information and at times downright awful and useless techniques they present to the unsuspecting student. And that, combined with hollywood hype is what creates that false impression of HTH combat as the end all be all. We must also consider blades and of course firearms in the HTH equation because often you don't see either until it's too late. If we only talk about self-defense, we miss the bigger picture. Being "defensive" is a recipe for pain. Being agressive is a recipe for grief. The answer is simple to rename what we do "self-awareness" training. Be aware of our circumstances and options at all times in all environments. Self-Defense is a misnomer. How about calling it "survival-training"? Better yet how about dropping lables entirely and just referring to fighting as what it is: Learning how to be the last person standing because I got away first? In my experience "self-defense" is about learning how to avoid being in the wrong place. PERIOD. I don't go to bars in neighborhoods I don't know without level-headed friends. AND if I'm in a strange situation in a strange environment I keep my eyes and ears tuned with my feet, legs and hands ready for what must come next. Sometimes I talk, other times I walk and on rare occassions I run and only if cornered (figuratively speaking) I will fight. Krishna may have grown up in the mean streets of Calcutta, but I hear Kerala is rougher and is the origin of many Indian fighters. How did he fare in those parts? --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:43:56 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] re: Eskrima for Self Defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Actually, we have a difference of opinion. Since you think I am long-winded: This is exactly six paragraphs; 537 words. Since you haven't said you teach martial arts nor have you indicated you run a school nor have you indicated you are involved in helping to keep people safe ... I find no credibility for your criticisms nor can I give them any weight or consideration. I would have said that if you want to discuss this rationally, you are free to come to Colorado and observe the martial arts and self-defense classes my wife and I teach so you aren't operating out of ignorance (and, therefore, are able to speak intelligently) about what we do. Oh ... excuse me ... I forgot ... you imagined that I threatened you. Your imagination ran amok about that, along with countless other ideas about the deformities of my character, as well as my motives. So while I always welcome a constructive critique from people who care about our students' well-being, I also value open minds who make rational statements from actual observations of our martial art and self-defense classes. I am always looking to improve. Had you wished, we might even have looked at your techniques and honored you by asking you to help teach in one field or the other. We do that with instructors who demonstrate skill in their fields...which is why our students have been honored to learn from some incredible martial artists, as well as recognized experts in self-defense from around the world. While I did not physically threaten you, I did challenge you to put up or shut up when it came to doing better. Your refusal to share the wealth of your knowledge -- which would qualify you to critique my work and, at the same time, benefit others -- saddens me. It was not smoke and mirrors as you claim, but a chance to show yourself as something other than a person with an ax to grind. I don't care if you don't like what I have to say...show the rest of the world something better. Although you might scorn me for my work, David Shoup said what I think about your refusal: "The galleries are full of critics. They play no ball, they fight no fights. The make no mistakes because they attempt nothing. Down in the arena are the doers. They make mistakes because they try many things. The man who makes no mistakes lacks boldness and the spirit of adventure. He is the one who never tries anything. His is the brake on the wheel of progress. And yet, it cannot be said that he makes no mistakes, because his biggest mistake is the very fact that he tries nothing, does nothing -- except criticize those who do things." Until you choose to give up being a critic and become a doer, you are a considerable waste of my time. This is time that can be better used helping others and discussing issues with knowledgeable people. As such feel free to carry on your insulting, belittling and totally erroneous monologue without me. Right now, I have students to teach. Carry on without me. Your ego and outrage for me BBQing your sacred cows will allow you to do so. M --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:02:10 -0800 (PST) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] LSAI club at ADB To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Cogie, As an LSAI instructor, I'm just curious - who's teaching you guys? Bot --- Cogie Gutierrez wrote: > Leo, > > Sorry to say, it is closed to outsiders. We are > wary of > people from outside of ADB. > > Cogie > > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 08:47:25 -0800 (PST), "Leo > Salinel" > said: > > Cogie, > > > > Has the LSAI club at ADB been existing for several > > months now? Who's the instructor there, and what > are > > the schedules? Do you teach the expats there or > just > > the local staff? How about outsiders? > > > > And finally, are there any other FMA clubs there > at > > the ADB, and could you please give me a listing of > the > > martial arts groups there? Thank you! > > > > ===== > > Earn $$ just by receiving and reading email! > > > http://www.resource-a-day.net/member/index.cgi?Brandon96 > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:17:53 -0800 (PST) From: Genfil Villahermosa Subject: [Eskrima] dekiti tirsia sarradas To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply to the 3rd ans. Unlike other martial artist that have learn their techniques from different Masters and Grandmastesr and merge it into their own system Dekiti Tirsia Siradas is not a blended FMA. It is pure filipino. It came only from one source and developed independently by GM Tortal. . Please visit the Dekiti Tirsia Siradas Website http://www.dekititirsiasiradas.org Click to join dekiti-tirsia-siradas --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:44:23 -0800 (PST) From: Genfil Villahermosa Subject: Re: [Eskrima] dekiti tirsia sarradas To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Your right! Mixing two or more different styles does not always produce better techniques. It is some times contradicts. It is like food, if mix filipino food with mexican and chinese and japanese foods it will taste aweful. It will takes a long time from a master of martial arts, test and apply in order to blend all these mix style to produce better techniques. Please visit the Dekiti Tirsia Siradas Website http://www.dekititirsiasiradas.org Click to join dekiti-tirsia-siradas --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! – Get yours free! --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:54:37 -0800 (PST) From: Genfil Villahermosa Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: New Website for Dekiti Tirsia Siradas To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Can you tell us the name of the receptionist? We are not aware of the new Kali group at the gym. In the mean time, our assigned instructor under DTS is not reporting anymore there. Please visit the Dekiti Tirsia Siradas Website http://www.dekititirsiasiradas.org Click to join dekiti-tirsia-siradas --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:22:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Marc or not Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ok gents. Time to move the 'to Marc or not thread' (whatever that means) offline. Many will like Marc's writings and many will not. Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Krishna Das" To: Subject: Re:[Eskrima] re: Eskrima for Self Defense Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:03:21 -0600 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc Macyoung wrote: >Actually, we have a difference of opinion. Since you think I am long-winded: >This is exactly six paragraphs; 537 words. > I notice that you still avoid addressing my central critique of yourself and your web site. Which is that your site is designed to promote you. (which is not a sin, but your unwillingness to admit that you are promoting yourself make you a dodgy character in my opinion) and your continual denigration of the martial arts as a ploy to promote yourself. I notice that even when these issues are put to you directly that you avoid them. As a matter of fact, in going through the archives of this list for the last couple of years this seems to be a pattern for you when someone has anything critical to say of you. It looks like you never answer the criticism, you just flame the person and make self aggrandizing statements. and attempt to distract from the issue at hand by interjecting irrelevant material until the critic goes away. But the central issues are still there, they will not go away no matter how much verbiage you throw at them. And while your fans will want me to shut up and bow to your profound wisdom, and the people who think you are a horse's ass will be happy that someone is pointing out the feet of clay poking out from under your robes, the people who have not made up their minds about you are getting to see you try to dodge these central issues over and over. Which are, I remind you yet again. That your web site is designed to point to you as the only real answer for "Self defense" and it does so in large part by denigrating, marginalizing and trivializing the Martial Arts as a whole, a field by your own admission you know very little about. So why don't you stop blowing smoke and tell us which martial arts and teachers are you better than when it comes to "Self Defense"? That is after all what you are really saying isn't it? That you are better than "the martial arts" when it comes to self defense. Well then tell us, better than who? I also notice that you have completely avoided my question about the last time you were "contesting with anyone even remotely close to your own caliber", why am I not surprised. Why don't you drink several cups of coffee and then thin about addressing the central issues here. A bit of honesty might do you some good. Evry time you start blowing smoke I will just come bact to what this is really about, and people will notice. And you can drop the racial slurs, after ten years in the US I am used to them, so you won't get a rise out of me, but I suspect that in some peoples eyes thay will make you look bad. _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest