Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:39:13 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 11 #452 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2000 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Lefty, Righty, Ambidextrous, Matched and Unmatched, Bilateralism (WoodyTX) 2. Lefty / Righty (Ray Terry) 3. Mr. Das & Mr. McYoung (Absolom Jones) 4. Re: LSAI club at ADB (Cogie Gutierrez) 5. Lefty, Righty, Ambidextrous, Matched and Unmatched, Part 3 (Marc Denny) 6. Re: Lefty, Righty, Ambidextrous, Matched and Unmatched, (Ray Terry) 7. Fw: Lefty, Righty, Ambidextrous, Matched and Unmatched, Part 4 plus a bit of marketing (Marc Denny) 8. Left Handed Training (George Mason) 9. Re:marc's lefty righty (Q) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:45:15 -0600 From: WoodyTX To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Lefty, Righty, Ambidextrous, Matched and Unmatched, Bilateralism Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 14:00:49 -0800, Marc Denny wrote: > Woof All: > > First a tangent: I'm on a couple of mailing lists (including one for a small firearms manufacturer), and I've learned an incredible breadth of knowledge from them. It's amazing where something will go when it's relatively uncontrolled. > DBMA has as its > mission statement "To Walk as a Warrior for all One's days." Do you have "Beginning Swagger" classes? ;-) Incidentally, an Army Colonel once told me that you can read the quality of a combat unit's leadership and training by the way they walk. > PS: QUESTION: My understanding is that monkeys do not have dominant and > complimentary sides. Why is it that we do? My dog seemed to have a dominant side. He would always "shake" and paw at things with his left paw, and would usually turn the same way before lying down (to the right). WoodyTX --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 16:36:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Lefty / Righty Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On the left/right handed aspects of teaching... I am very right handed. The first left handed student I had in eskrima gave me fits. It was a good exercise for me, but the student surely suffered. I knew that Al Concepcion, one of Gm Angel Cabales' very first students, was a lefty so I asked Manong Al how Gm Angel taught him Serrada. Al said that he used his right hand in class when Angel was teaching and then on his own he practiced the counters on his strong/left side. Another story re Manong Al... A friend was visiting with Al and was asked by Al if he would demonstrate some of his eskrima. So (I'll call him "Felicisimo") as Felicisimo would demo a counter he would hear Manong Al say, Ah Felicisimo you are fast. As Felicisimo would show a disarm, he would hear, Ah Felicisimo you are strong. After the demo went on a bit longer Felicisimo was asked if he would like to flow spar a little. As Felicisimo was replying, Sure!, he noticed that Manong Al was moving the stick from the hand he had been using all this time, his right, into his left hand. :) Felicisimo found the going a bit more difficult after that... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Absolom Jones" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 01:04:10 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Mr. Das & Mr. McYoung Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Gentlemen, I have read your exchanges over past week with a great deal of care. You are talking at and past one another. And you are not going to reach a point of conciliation, which is ok, but that is a decision that only the two of you can achieve. However there twwo points that I would like to comment on. marcmacyoung@earthlink.net - has written - > >While I did not physically threaten you, I did challenge you to put up or >shut up when it came to doing better. Your refusal to share the wealth of >your knowledge -- which would qualify you to critique my work and, at the >same time, benefit others -- saddens me. It was not smoke and mirrors as >you >claim, but a chance to show yourself as something other than a person with >an ax to grind. I don't care if you don't like what I have to say...show >the >rest of the world something better. Although you might scorn me for my >work, David Shoup said what I think about your refusal: > >Until you choose to give up being a critic and become a doer, you are a >considerable waste of my time. This is time that can be better used helping >others and discussing issues with knowledgeable people. As such feel free >to >carry on your insulting, belittling and totally erroneous monologue without >me. Right now, I have students to teach. Carry on without me. Your ego and >outrage for me BBQing your sacred cows will allow you to do so. A very valid and telling point that Mr. Das, needs to address. It really is quite easy to be critical and yet not offer anything constructive. krishna_das@netlane.com - has written the following - > >And while your fans will want me to shut up and bow to your profound >wisdom, and the people who think you are a horse's ass will be happy that >someone is pointing out the feet of clay poking out from under your robes, >the people who have not made up their minds about you are getting to see >you try to dodge these central issues over and over. > Perhaps you are right, but not from my perspective because Mr. McYoung make very similar points that my first and second martial arts instructors made. There are differences, but where these three people are in agreement is substancial. Sincerely, Asolom Jones --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] LSAI club at ADB To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:19:35 -0800 From: "Cogie Gutierrez" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sure thing. :-) On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:00:25 -0800 (PST), "Felipe Jocano" said: > Oh. Please greet Mang Romy for me. Last time I saw him > was at Guro Elmer's wake. > Thanks, > Bot > --- Cogie Gutierrez wrote: > > > Romy Valenzuela's lineage > > > > On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:02:10 -0800 (PST), "Felipe > > Jocano" > > said: > > > Hello Cogie, > > > > > > As an LSAI instructor, I'm just curious - who's > > > teaching you guys? > > > > > > Bot > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > http://my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2000 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:27:37 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Lefty, Righty, Ambidextrous, Matched and Unmatched, Part 3 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Responses interspersed: > From: "abreton@juno.com" >> Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Lefty, Righty, Ambidextrous, Matched and > Unmatched, and bilateralism > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Marc, I got to say that's an inspiring post. Tail wags. >, , , Sometimes you have to put your ego down. I also admire working your working to improve even while you were recuperating. I've been >wracked by one injury after another recently and that's good the hear. Few things will mess with your ego like having your complementary side work in the dominant function-- combining stick and footwork is another. The art and science of working around injuries is an important one, especially the closer you play to your personal limits. > A question: When you say "sinawali", do you mean the kind of sinawali pattern that people are used to (not necessarily the drills, but the >motions) or is 'sinawali' here used to mean 'two sticks'? Without giving the store away, could you be more detailed about the lessons you >learned? I am using "siniwali" here in the common and imprecise American usage of the term i.e. to mean "double stick". It is my understanding that in the Philippines the term is used to refer to "weaving" motions. However, just as Brazilians often use kimono to refer to a gi, in the US we often use siniwali to mean double stick. I suspect we do it because the foreign word sounds cooler than "double stick" :-) As for lessons learned, they are numerous and lengthy. Perhaps another day. > >PS: QUESTION: My understanding is that monkeys do not have dominant and > >complimentary sides. Why is it that we do? > > Like you said, I'm often surprised where this list goes. I would think that it is a development in tool handling ability. I think that hand >dexterity goes hand-in-hand (pun intended) with the development of intelligence, conceptual ability and speech, and that takes some rationing >of brain reserves , , , . > > Why not develop the non-dominant hand? I'm thinking it's a conservation of effort thing. Most of us can use the non-dominant hand, just >without as much dexterity. I'm picturing a cave man flintknapping a stone tool: he (or she) can hold one stone in the non-dominant hand - in a >multitude of positions - and let the dominant hand do the fine-tuned work, and things work just fine. Same thing with weaving baskets, tying >knots, etc. Certainly the idea of conservation is plausible and accords with principles of evolutionary biology, but I'm wondering if it is more a question of specialization of functions-- dominant and complementary as you point out in your next paragraph: > It could also be that one-sidedness allows one to use one handed weapons easier. Think of one of our ancestors throwing a spear. Having a >dominant side "knowing" it was the popropellant fource and the non-dominant side "knowing" it was a bracing force would be an advantage in >that middle range of our development when we were walking upright using tools, but not using language too well. When you look at films of >apes attacking each other with branches, you don't have that same sophistication. And, evolutionarily speaking, it would be far easier to hard->wire that in (with little downside, since for most of our time on the planet writing has not been widely used) than to set up a caveman dojo to >churn out cromagnon black belts in spear throwing after just five years. > > I also wonder if there's something about the division of the brain into hemispheres, although one would think the motor part would be able to > function interpedently. Hmm interesting point; this had not occurred to me. Preliminary follow-up question: Do (some or all) monkeys have hemispheres or is this distinctive to humans? >All this is, of course, my being speculative. If you're really interested, I think Feldenkrais writes about this in some of his books. Anyone able to narrow this down a bit? > From: Kes41355@aol.com > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:31:10 EST > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Kim's lefty response > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Hi Doc, > > The instructor I mentioned was Dan Inosanto, and yes, I was present. > > I'm not for or against anybody on this point, just telling it from a >lefties point of view; it is sometimes hard to relate to something unless you live >it. I am left dominant (both in strength and reflexes), and would never >presume to have a righty train with his left as his dominant hand just because I'm >not a right-hand dominant person. I always ask a new student which hand they >are most comfortable with before they begin training with me. My reasons for >this are that righties often assume that it's just a matter of having the lefty > put the stick in their right hand and train it this way from the >beginning, and this will make a "righty" out of the person. It doesn't work that way, >trust me. "Handedness" doesn't just refer to "hands"...we are also right or >left dominant eyed, and this must be taken into consideration as well. I think Guro Inosanto is left eyed BTW > In the end, I find it's always best to let nature take it's course, which I >believe was the cornerstone of the training, and later teaching, of one >very famous martial artist.... > > Kim Satterfield This too makes sense. Just in case it is necessary, a point of clarification: I am not seeking to make righties into lefties or vice versa Rather I seek to have movements learned on the complementary side. In my experience, when learned in this way they are always natural to the complementary side and transpose readily to the dominant side. Motions learned on the dominant side do NOT transpose readily to the complementary side. At any rate, our goal over time is to have the option against any one opponent, be he right or lefty, to fight matched lead or unmatched lead and in 360 situations, in that there may not be time to select the preferred side, to not require having a particular side forward as well as being able to play for field position in any direction. Concerning empty hand, in the 1980s I thought I was doing well with ambidexterity because I sparred using both leads. Upon honest reflection I had to realize that this was not so. When in Jun Fan or Kali single stick modalities, I put the strong side forward, and when in Muay Thai or Savate modalities I put the strong side in the power position. I agree that the dominant side will virtually always be better than the complementary side in the dominant function, but I still want to have, for example a humdinger of a left cross when fighting out of Right Lead against a Righty in Left Lead. One of the purposes of the approach I have outlined is to develop this. This perhaps addresses the point made in this post: > Subject: [Eskrima] Re: lefty/righty > > Hi Crafty, > , , , BTW, one of my major shortcomings in my training was to rely too > much on my "left-side forward" stance, and carry it over to empty-hand. I boxed for > years, but still put the left side forward due to a very serious shoulder dislocation > early in my career. I had a helluva a left jab and hook, but had to think >to get the right cross to fire. I put twenty plus years into just drilling the > right cross, but it still lags a bit. Exactly. > As for why monkeys have no dominant side, who knows, maybe they have both > sides of the brain working as one unit, but don't want to give up the secret... In which case maybe they are just making monkeys out of us , , , :-) > Kim Satterfield Woof, Crafty Dog PS: About 6 months ago I started taking Djembe Drum lessons (the Djembe is a drum from west Africa). My teacher is pleased with me progress and feels that my double stick training has been of tremendous benefit to me in this endeavor. He is a lefty and early in the process noted that I was playing as a lefty too. He asked if I was a lefty too, but I replied that no, I am a righty. So he asked me to play righty. Thinking to apply my double stick theories I resisted but he insisted, only to discover that I did better as a Lefty in 4/4 rhythms, but better as a Righty in 6/8 rhythms. Either way, it seems that I have above average abilities to play with my complementary hand in the dominant function. In the long run he feels the ability to work with either hand in the dominant function will allow for higher level drumming. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Lefty, Righty, Ambidextrous, Matched and Unmatched, To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 17:48:11 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > 5) A common response to this ego chatter is to think that matching siniwali > drills (right meets right, etc) show ambidexterity. Try Inayan sinawali concepts for fun sometime. Take a training partner and any sinawali drill. While doing the drill have one person switch so that the strike typically done with the left hand is now done with the right and vice versa. Flow back and forth between the normal drill and the new drill. Both can do the new drill or one the old and one the new. Mix it up, flowing all the while. There are more drill variations, but this is a good place to start. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:01:00 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Fw: Lefty, Righty, Ambidextrous, Matched and Unmatched, Part 4 plus a bit of marketing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: BTW, back in August we shot a DVD on our Single Stick Los Triques subsytem. (Los Triques refers to our blend of Kali and Krabi Krabong -- the 3 "Ks" get it?-- it is more suitable for larger sticks) In order to make the point about Bilateralism and learning on the complementary side first, assisted by Guro Lonely Dog, I teach it all Left-handed. And now, for some marketing: We are in the process of converting the first and second series to DVD. Each DVD will have substantial new footage. For example, we are currently working on "The Grandfathers Speak" and will include portions of an interview with GM Pedoy Braulio of Derobio and a 30 minute interview I did in his basement with GM Leo Giron of Bahala Na Larga Mano. Already done and awaiting some final details concerning boxes and labels are "Krabi Krabong for DBMA"; "Combining Stick and Footwork"; and "Attacking Blocks". As we finish this project we will do the post-production on the DVDs we shot in August: Big Single Stick Los Triques Kali Tudo (tm) Staff Snaggletooth: Power Combos on the Diamond Triangle. In the first week of February, Lonely Dog will fly in again and we will shoot extensive addititional material. Woof, Guro Crafty --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:56:02 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: George Mason To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Left Handed Training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have found the whole left vs. right hand training discussion to be quite interesting. I know that I struggled with my left hand for years. Seemed like I could never develop the power with it that I wanted. Then I decided to start training in Aikido. My instructor really emphasized training equally with both sides. And I spend a lot of time on it. The Aikido seemed to make a real difference in everything I did with the other arts I was training in. I am not even going to pretend that my left hand is now as good as my right because it isn't. But I will say that I am at least competant on that side now to a degree that I thought I would never reach. I still work the left side more than the right a lot of the time to compensate for my tendency to undertrain that side. I've only been training in kali for about 8 years. So my knowledge is still small. I trained in kempo for a long time prior to the kali. Funny thing how it all seems to just blend together. I am really enjoying reading some of the comments that are being shared on this page. Thanks to all of you for sharing. Geo M. ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2004 20:03:03 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Q To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re:marc's lefty righty Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Crafty wrote:<< 1) Whereas single lead boxing structures (e.g. a righty always having the left foot forward) develop both sides of the body, single stick structures as trained by most people tend to increase the difference between dominant and complimentary sides. 2) Fastest initial results may come from working single stick in standard lead. IMO this tends to lead to physical imbalances over time. For many people double stick takes substantially more training time before good results are obtained in fighting.>> I agree. I like the concept of the "ego pop" but that makes many assumptions one of which that testosterone and its manefistations always rule... perhaps it does. I think of the answer to the problem as more simple in that everyone on this list either has a job or goes to school. To use a lawyer phrase..."Time is of the Essence". That said you either have the time to be a percieved better fighter and continue to learn more tools (many people place higher value on number of tools vs. complete use of a single tool) by perfecting the dominant side. That is how we get belts and move from phase 1-4 etc... No one is impressed that you can do a left hand florette. I think it is a matter of having time and how you maximize it for perceived value. Compare for instance going to a class an Guro Dan's. We all have commented it is like drinking from a firehose. Who has time under those conditions to work the left side? You have not got to this point since you are teaching but for those of us training by ourselves in small groups , doing what Guro Dan called personal research, our routine often times gets stale as the same sparing partners we spar. So what is the answer to this boredom? Work the left side. I have seen more development of the complimentary side under these conditions than any other. <<5) My sense of it however is that true skill is best achieved by the complimentary side of the body being trained in dominant side movement BEFORE the dominant side learns the movements in question. >> Yes I agree but you have to impress upon the student that there is value in ambidexterity. You see the problem I see is very few teachers are truely 360 degree and most fail to understand the fighting continuim and only see the fighting measure whithin their own context of largo, medio, corto etc... <> Now that is funny Marc...not because you got injured but because my own broken right knee (Tibial plateau fracture with ligaments ski injury rehabilitated at IMB), was the beginning of my development of the leftside in 1984. You see I was initially trained JunFan Sigung Lee right lead forward. For those who do not know what this is, it is strong leg forward. So now my left leg was stronger so I had to learn to switch. While I don't reccommend it sometimes you have to get hurt to learn... Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2004: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest